In CCT, all the games were played through the internet, so it's difficult to prevent cheating in the match. In other words, You can use any engine while playing.
In WCCC, it's totally different! Every engine's copyright shall be checked up by the auditor firstly. And no one can cheat.
So, I am afraid to say that the result of CCT said nothing.
CCT has a mechanism to prevent cheating in a match that is "kibitz", the engine is required to give data on evaluation, which if there is any suspicion can ask the engine, its sources and see if reproduced the same as the engine was giving its kibitz.
Moreover in the WCCC is just as easy or more cheating because there are programs that also play remotely.
Swaminathan wrote:
Fruit and Chess64 are completely different chess engines, this has been pointed out many times...in case you didn't know.
What is more different?
Chess64 = bitboard
Fruit = bitboard
new eval in Chess64
big eval changes in Fruit
or
Toga which is very near to Fruit 2.1 which is from 2005/06/17
looks like double standards.
Thomas
I don't know how you happen to know what is inside Chess64?Chess64 has never been released to testers, nor its analysis lines have ever been posted IIRC,Just because Fruit and Chess64 are both bitboard doesn't make them similar engines or derivatives(like Toga,Gambit Fruit etc) of one another...there are other non clone weaker bitboard engines out there...
I think only Fruit team members could say what's in Chess64 or to answer your questions in general.
Hi Pedro,
you are absolutely right that derivates could become a problem in tournaments. And that problem is very difficult to handle. I have no problem with the decision that derivates may not enter some tournaments. i myself would´t enter if it would be allowed for me.
But what i do not like is that some people criticize tournament directors if they would allow it. In my opinion it could be interesting to see what happens, if derivates would be allowed.
Some people have so much hate aginst derivates that they are not longer objective. And then we have double standards.
Hi Swami,
exactly. Nobody knows it. and nobody knows what has changed in Fruit. And in the cas of Fruit Chess64 you say they are different and in the case Toga Fruit you say they are not differen enough. But nobody knows it. that i call double standards.
But please no discussion. I only want that some people think about it objective.
Thomas Gaksch wrote:Hi Pedro,
you are absolutely right that derivates could become a problem in tournaments. And that problem is very difficult to handle. I have no problem with the decision that derivates may not enter some tournaments. i myself would´t enter if it would be allowed for me.
But what i do not like is that some people criticize tournament directors if they would allow it. In my opinion it could be interesting to see what happens, if derivates would be allowed.
Some people have so much hate aginst derivates that they are not longer objective. And then we have double standards.
But again. I do not want to participate!!
Thomas
This is competition just like boxing if allowed,your engine is competing with other engine, then some group of programmers would complain because your engine score ahead of them and that your engine is a derivative whereas their engines are weaker non clones...
I dont criticize the tournament director either, I was emphasizing my point to the discussion about CCT and WCCC where the guy that initiated the thread claimed that there would be a problem of more derivatives being used in the online CCT tournament.I said none was used, I was not talking about derivatives/Cluster Toga in general.
As I said, I don't have any problem with Toga infact I do test it in my own tournament and I hope that you don't lose interest in developing the engine for the sake of comp chess fans and technology
Same standards for Toga. In my opinion, there speaks nothing against entering Toga into a tournament where Chess64 participates (if Fabien is ok with that and maybe is listed as coauthor) and the tournament rules allow a programmer to take part with several engines. As far as I read Chess64 is a complete rewrite of Fruit, so it differs both to Fruit and to Toga.
It get's tricky however when modified Fruit and Toga enter. Depends how different they are.
swami wrote:In the first place, GridChess also contains Crafty,Even if these three authors give the permission for Kai to use it, then TD would not have accepted it as there were already Fruit and Crafty participating in the tournament.
I was told that since Paderborn GridChess no longer uses Crafty parts, and that they were replaced by Toga. And if the TD would not accept both Fruit and GridChess, because they have too much code in common, it would be up to Fabien to decide which of the two he wants to enter. The TD should have no say in this...
CCT is more relevant, because of better participation, but WMCCC and WCCC let programmers meet face to face. The events have different relevance and audience.
Both are worthwhile, but W(M)CCC has become E(M)CCC because it has been held in Europe every year for quite some time now.
Swaminathan wrote:
Fruit and Chess64 are completely different chess engines, this has been pointed out many times...in case you didn't know.
What is more different?
Chess64 = bitboard
Fruit = bitboard
new eval in Chess64
big eval changes in Fruit
or
Toga which is very near to Fruit 2.1 which is from 2005/06/17
looks like double standards.
Thomas
I don't know how you happen to know what is inside Chess64?Chess64 has never been released to testers, nor its analysis lines have ever been posted IIRC,Just because Fruit and Chess64 are both bitboard doesn't make them similar engines or derivatives(like Toga,Gambit Fruit etc) of one another...there are other non clone weaker bitboard engines out there...
I think only Fruit team members could say what's in Chess64 or to answer your questions in general.
Chess_64 is a complete rewrite that uses OO {not at all like Fruit, which uses C++ as 'a better C'} and does not resemble Fruit in the slightest.
if allowed,your engine is competing with other engine, then some group of programmers would complain because your engine score ahead of them and that your engine is a derivative whereas their engines are weaker non clones...