Cool move!

[smirobth]

Well maybe this move is too cool because it seems to lose. Nxg4!! however just wins outright.

Programs seem to have a great deal of difficulty here. What is the source of this position?

[maxchgr]

well either way, im interested now,
what's a "hash collusion" ? :O

[Terry McCracken]

Well maybe this move is too cool because it seems to lose. Nxg4!! however just wins outright.

Programs seem to have a great deal of difficulty here. What is the source of this position?

Do you see a win with 12..Nxg4?! Robin? I don't, White has too much defence.

I think 12..f5!? is no worse. 12..Na5 is also off track after 13. Bc2.

Yes, I'd like to see the actual game as well.

[smirobth]

Well maybe this move is too cool because it seems to lose. Nxg4!! however just wins outright.

Programs seem to have a great deal of difficulty here. What is the source of this position?

Do you see a win with 12..Nxg4?! Robin? I don't, White has too much defence.

I don't see anything I would definitely call a win. However after what I suspect is probably the main line: 12...Nxg4 13.hxg4 Bxg4 14.Qf1 Qd7 15.Qg2 f5 I think White is under a lot of presure. Black can play Rf6, Raf8 and continue to build up his attack and it seems like it might be hard for White to untangle his pieces for the defence. If you set up the position after 15...f5 programs start to see good things for Black. Perhaps White has a better defense on move 14. Anyway I think it would take me a long time to form firm conclusions and I don't plan on looking at it long enough to do so. That is one reason I would like to know the source.

[Ovyron]

12...Nxg4 13.hxg4 Bxg4 14.Qf1 Qd7 15.Qg2 f5 I think White is under a lot of presure. Black can play Rf6, Raf8 and continue to build up his attack and it seems like it might be hard for White to untangle his pieces for the defence. If you set up the position after 15...f5 programs start to see good things for Black. Perhaps White has a better defense on move 14. Anyway I think it would take me a long time to form firm conclusions and I don't plan on looking at it long enough to do so. That is one reason I would like to know the source.

After Jack Lad claimed that Nxg4 is completely winning I made more analysis:

1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Qf1 Qd7 4. Qg2 f5 5. d4 Rf6 6. exf5 Qxf5 7. Nh4 Qh5 8. Re4 Bd1

Doesn't seem winning...

1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Qf1 Qd7 4. Qg2 f5 5. Re1 Rf6
6. d4 exf4 7. cxd4 Bxd4 8. Bd5 Ba7

Seems much better for black, and I couldn't find improvements for White, but that doesn't seem clearly winning.

[Eelco de Groot]

[d] r1bq1r1k/bpp2ppp/p1np3n/4p3/4P1P1/1BPP1N1P/PP1NRP2/R1BQ2K1 b - g3 0 12

A very experimental Toga Checkov does not see much advantage for Black, after


1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Qf1 Qd7 4. Qg2 f5 *

[d]r4r1k/bppq2pp/p1np4/4pp2/4P1b1/1BPP1N2/PP1NRPQ1/R1B3K1 w - -

Engine: Toga 1.5 Checkov_beta1 bb5men (256 MB, Athlon 2009 MHz, build 3, no operative bitbases yet) by Letouzey, Gaksch, Pudas and de Groot

1/05 0:00 -0.58 5.exf5 Qxf5 (58)

1/05 0:00 -0.48 5.Kh1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 (95)

1/07 0:00 -0.22 5.Qh1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 (238)

2/10 0:00 -0.22 5.Qh1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 (813)

3/10 0:00 -0.73 5.Qh1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bh3 (1.874)

3/18 0:00 +0.05 5.d4 Na5 6.exf5 Nxb3 7.Nxb3 Qxf5 (5.486)

4/23 0:00 -0.29 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Nxd4 7.Nxd4 Bxd4
8.Nf3 (13.935)

5/38 0:00 -0.67 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bxd4 7.Nxd4 Nxd4
8.Re1 f4 (192.529)

5/38 0:00 -0.48 5.Kh1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bh3 7.Qg3 Bc5 (244.887)

5/38 0:00 +0.08 5.Bd5 g5 6.Qh2 fxe4 7.Bxe4 Na5 (415.263)

6/38 0:01 -0.19 5.Bd5 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bxf3 7.Nxf3 Qf5
8.Rh4 Qxd3 9.Bxc6 bxc6 (950.113) 610

7/45 0:08 -0.07 5.Bd5 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bf5 7.Rh4 Bxd3
8.Be4 Bxe4 9.Nxe4 Kg8 (5.286.390) 638

8/53 0:55 -0.01 5.Bd5 Rae8 6.a4 Na5 7.b4 fxe4 8.Rxe4 Bh3
9.Qg6 (36.414.205) 654

9/56 1:39 -0.06 5.Bd5 Rae8 6.a4 fxe4 7.Rxe4 Bf5
8.Rh4 Bxd3 9.Be4 Bxe4 10.Nxe4 Kg8 (65.769.496) 659

10/65 5:39 -0.17 5.Bd5 Rae8 6.Kh1 Ne7 7.Bxb7 Bxf3
8.Nxf3 Qb5 9.Bd5 Nxd5 10.c4 fxe4
11.Rxe4 Qa4 12.cxd5 Qd1+ 13.Ne1 Rxf2 (226.822.183)668

best move: Bb3-d5 time: 8:17.281 min n/s: 673.412 CPU 100.0% n/s(1CPU): 673.412 nodes: 334.770.000

Very node-hungry Q-Search, normally Toga would get four to five plies deeper easily...

Eelco

[Ovyron]

5. Bd5, huh? Can you force 5. Bd5 Rf6 to see if Toga can see the danger now? Or maybe there's no danger and I'm missing something...

[George Tsavdaris]

I don't see anything I would definitely call a win. However after what I suspect is probably the main line: 12...Nxg4 13.hxg4 Bxg4 14.Qf1 Qd7 15.Qg2 f5 I think White is under a lot of presure. Black can play Rf6, Raf8 and continue to build up his attack and it seems like it might be hard for White to untangle his pieces for the defence. If you set up the position after 15...f5 programs start to see good things for Black. Perhaps White has a better defense on move 14. Anyway I think it would take me a long time to form firm conclusions and I don't plan on looking at it long enough to do so. That is one reason I would like to know the source.

I have seen this game recently(less than half a year) between 2 Chess programs and i think Rybka's name is involved here as black, but i'm not sure.....

[Jack Lad]

I have seen this game recently(less than half a year) between 2 Chess programs and i think Rybka's name is involved here as black, but i'm not sure.....

Well spotted!

http://www.chessvibes.com/tournaments/r ... ortal-game

[Jack Lad]

I don't see anything I would definitely call a win. However after what I suspect is probably the main line: 12...Nxg4 13.hxg4 Bxg4 14.Qf1 Qd7 15.Qg2 f5 I think White is under a lot of presure. Black can play Rf6, Raf8 and continue to build up his attack and it seems like it might be hard for White to untangle his pieces for the defence. If you set up the position after 15...f5 programs start to see good things for Black. Perhaps White has a better defense on move 14. Anyway I think it would take me a long time to form firm conclusions and I don't plan on looking at it long enough to do so. That is one reason I would like to know the source.

This is all correct - white has no good defence after Rf6!