Terry McCracken wrote:
Can any engine find 45..Qb6!!..?
This really is a nice position Terry!
Codeman wrote:are you sure white can't win if declining the sacrifice?
At least white should be able to win the pawn on a5
I don't think White can stop the Draw by declining the sacrifice as there seems to be no way for the queen to get pass the wall of pawns.
As I said .. task 1 is to capture the a5 pawn .. then it should be easy to get the queen through .. I think that even after a queen-trade white stands better with N vs black colored B
after some analysis with the help of Salva and Chris from the Chesswar channel it seems to be a draw:
1... Qb6 2. Qe2 {to avoid Be1 or Bh2 Bg1 which can help to protect the pawn on a5} Kb7
3. Kb3 {getting the king to a4} Qa7 {black-queen is no longer bound to b6 after the white-queen moved; black king can now support the defence}
4. Nc3 Kb6 5. Ka4 h4 {ensures that later, should pieces be traded, white h4 is possible}
6. Na2 {getting the knight to b3} Qa8 7. Nc1 Qa7 8. Nb3 Qa8
9. Qd2 {queen finally joins the attack} Qa7
10. Qxa5+ {capturing with the knight will pin the knight forever} Qxa5+
11. Nxa5 Be1 {from now on black Bishop can for ever defend a5}
The Knight might be able to capture g5, but that still doesn't help. Exchanging pieces there still would be no chance for white to break through on the kingside although the black king would have to stay on the queen-side
any better suggestions?
I think your final position is won for white. White can win Pg5, and can force B to either defend h4 or a5 with the white king controlling e1. Once a5+ is played, white can play a6, Nf5, force a capture in g3 and win the pawn endgame.
michiguel wrote:I think your final position is won for white. White can win Pg5, and can force B to either defend h4 or a5 with the white king controlling e1. Once a5+ is played, white can play a6, Nf5, force a capture in g3 and win the pawn endgame.
Miguel
Lets start off our discussion with the following position (which seems forced to me)
Terry McCracken wrote:[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 b - - 0 45
Can any engine find 45..Qb6!!..?
White wins with 1. Nxb6 cxb6 2. h4
Maybe this position will be more accurate to test (best move Qb6)
[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp1p1/P1N1Pp1p/2P2PbP/KQ4P1/8 b KQkq - 0 1
Miguel
White does not win Miguel.
In fact those are the moves from the exact game that was played which seems to be blocked and a dead draw. You have overlooked black playing h3 followed by h4..
I have not yet looked at your modified position.
Christopher
Yes, I missed h3. Still, Edmund's plan to win a5 seems to be the way to go.
Miguel
Miguel, how could white win the a5-pawn when Qb6 defends it?
Last edited by GenoM on Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
michiguel wrote:I think your final position is won for white. White can win Pg5, and can force B to either defend h4 or a5 with the white king controlling e1. Once a5+ is played, white can play a6, Nf5, force a capture in g3 and win the pawn endgame.
Miguel
Lets start off our discussion with the following position (which seems forced to me)
[d]8/2p5/1k1p2N1/1PpPp3/K1P1Pp1p/P4P1P/6P1/4b3 w - - 0 19
the white king can go and attack e1, then the bishop will defend h4, but to get the a pawn moving, the king is needed on the queen side again.
Furthermore the black king will try to penetrate the white position as soon as the white king walks away
For the position, place the N on c6, Kd1. If the Bishop is kept on the e1-a5 diagonal, play Ne7 and Nf5 and take h4. If the Bishop is kept between f2 or g3, play a4-a5+
michiguel wrote:I think your final position is won for white. White can win Pg5, and can force B to either defend h4 or a5 with the white king controlling e1. Once a5+ is played, white can play a6, Nf5, force a capture in g3 and win the pawn endgame.
Miguel
Lets start off our discussion with the following position (which seems forced to me)
[d]8/2p5/1k1p2N1/1PpPp3/K1P1Pp1p/P4P1P/6P1/4b3 w - - 0 19
the white king can go and attack e1, then the bishop will defend h4, but to get the a pawn moving, the king is needed on the queen side again.
Furthermore the black king will try to penetrate the white position as soon as the white king walks away
I think you need to start earlier, as the 2nd move you give for black seems weaker than 2. ... Qa7.
[d]2k5/2p5/1q1p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/K2Q2P1/8 b - - 0 2
Here you give 2. ... Kb7? but 2. ... Qa7 is better.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers
Terry McCracken wrote:[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 b - - 0 45
Can any engine find 45..Qb6!!..?
White wins with 1. Nxb6 cxb6 2. h4
Maybe this position will be more accurate to test (best move Qb6)
[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp1p1/P1N1Pp1p/2P2PbP/KQ4P1/8 b KQkq - 0 1
Miguel
White does not win Miguel.
In fact those are the moves from the exact game that was played which seems to be blocked and a dead draw. You have overlooked black playing h3 followed by h4..
I have not yet looked at your modified position.
Christopher
Yes, I missed h3. Still, Edmund's plan to win a5 seems to be the way to go.
Miguel
Miguel, how could white win the a5-pawn when Qb6 defends it?
Edmund gave a line in the post above. It is needed to place the King on a4.
First threaten c7 with the knight. So that the black king is bound to defend it. Then you can move your king towards e1. if the bishop defends h4, put the king on f1 and use the knight to help the a pawn
[d]8/2p5/1kNp4/1PpPp3/2P1Pp1p/P4PbP/6P1/5K2 w - - 0 1
otherwise, if the bishop defends the a file, the knight can capture the h pawn. Thus letting the king capture the a and c pawn. Anyway the h pawn queens sooner than the c pawn. The bishop can't do anything about it.
michiguel wrote:I think your final position is won for white. White can win Pg5, and can force B to either defend h4 or a5 with the white king controlling e1. Once a5+ is played, white can play a6, Nf5, force a capture in g3 and win the pawn endgame.
Miguel
Lets start off our discussion with the following position (which seems forced to me)
[d]8/2p5/1k1p2N1/1PpPp3/K1P1Pp1p/P4P1P/6P1/4b3 w - - 0 19
the white king can go and attack e1, then the bishop will defend h4, but to get the a pawn moving, the king is needed on the queen side again.
Furthermore the black king will try to penetrate the white position as soon as the white king walks away
I think you need to start earlier, as the 2nd move you give for black seems weaker than 2. ... Qa7.
[d]2k5/2p5/1q1p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/K2Q2P1/8 b - - 0 2
Here you give 2. ... Kb7? but 2. ... Qa7 is better.
Forget this comment. Let me look deeper ...
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers
michiguel wrote:I think your final position is won for white. White can win Pg5, and can force B to either defend h4 or a5 with the white king controlling e1. Once a5+ is played, white can play a6, Nf5, force a capture in g3 and win the pawn endgame.
Miguel
Lets start off our discussion with the following position (which seems forced to me)
[d]8/2p5/1k1p2N1/1PpPp3/K1P1Pp1p/P4P1P/6P1/4b3 w - - 0 19
the white king can go and attack e1, then the bishop will defend h4, but to get the a pawn moving, the king is needed on the queen side again.
Furthermore the black king will try to penetrate the white position as soon as the white king walks away
I think you need to start earlier, as the 2nd move you give for black seems weaker than 2. ... Qa7.
[d]2k5/2p5/1q1p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/K2Q2P1/8 b - - 0 2
Here you give 2. ... Kb7? but 2. ... Qa7 is better.
It does not matter. There is no way black can stop White to place the Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.
Besides, in your position, b6 deserves serious consideration. But the other plan to take a5 is straightforward.
