A problem CC community has

[Harvey Williamson]

Let us give ICGA positive inputs for the future!

that quote was not written by me please can someone remove it.

[moderation] Fixed : Thorsten mistakenly erased a "quote" statement. (Julien) [/moderation]

[Harvey Williamson]

I know David for 25+ years and I am confident he will go all the way the programmers want him to go. The problem is not David nor the ICGA (=David) but its programmers and the ongoing boycott of Rybka as lastly demonstrated when Peter Skinner was in favor to allow Rybka in his CCT tournament.

Everybody knows Rybka 3 is above suspicion (even Ken Thompson said so) and yet the boycott continues. Until then the problem remains. First something has to change between the ears of some programmers before the CC community can move on. It has been long enough by now.

Then why not ask Vas to talk to the ICGA and the case can be reopened. he could perhaps show the R3 code to ken who I think would be trusted by all sides.

[rodolfoleoni]

We can read lots of posts about how crap was last ICGA WCCC, lots of ideas, lots of people in favor/against any idea. No real fresh air. Just confusing particles flying around, while the best way to do something would probably be to act from inside ICGA. To become members, to come with a revisitation of rules. To finally get a clear sentence about Ippo/Robbo/Ivan + derivatives. Because the community can solve this problem only if it can look at it straight into its "eyes".

Is the problem the different hardware of each participant? ICGA organized the WCSC just after WCCC. Engines running the same software, and Hiarcs won it. Stockfish and Komodo would have good chances there.

Is the problem rule #2? Why don't introduce a rule about a separate Championship where derivatives are allowed? (The above sentence would be needed, of course)

But what many people seem to not understand is there's already a organization, and it can be improved a lot with positive proposals. E.g., Adam Hair had an excellent idea about satellite locations around the world, to allow more programmers to participate.

Let us give ICGA positive inputs for the future!

Yes, join the ICGA and join the debate there.

This is something I often considered to do. What prevented me? I'm not a programmer. I only perform a massive work of testing/tuning of The Baron, and I'm afraid I can contribute only a little to the debates. I'll ask for advice to our common friend Richard. I'd feel uneasy, anyway, to partecipate at decisions which I can understand only partially. Let us see.

[Rebel]

I know David for 25+ years and I am confident he will go all the way the programmers want him to go. The problem is not David nor the ICGA (=David) but its programmers and the ongoing boycott of Rybka as lastly demonstrated when Peter Skinner was in favor to allow Rybka in his CCT tournament.

Everybody knows Rybka 3 is above suspicion (even Ken Thompson said so) and yet the boycott continues. Until then the problem remains. First something has to change between the ears of some programmers before the CC community can move on. It has been long enough by now.

Then why not ask Vas to talk to the ICGA and the case can be reopened. he could perhaps show the R3 code to ken who I think would be trusted by all sides.

The offer is appreciated but I think you first need to check some of the programmers else you will go the CSVN way.

[geots]

Let us give ICGA positive inputs for the future!

Yes, join the ICGA and join the debate there.

the icga is a fossile. situation has changed. its better to shut down this silly organisation instead of continue .

icga is and always was an instrument to control computerchess.
a few people exploited computerchess.

+6!


gts

[Harvey Williamson]

We can read lots of posts about how crap was last ICGA WCCC, lots of ideas, lots of people in favor/against any idea. No real fresh air. Just confusing particles flying around, while the best way to do something would probably be to act from inside ICGA. To become members, to come with a revisitation of rules. To finally get a clear sentence about Ippo/Robbo/Ivan + derivatives. Because the community can solve this problem only if it can look at it straight into its "eyes".

Is the problem the different hardware of each participant? ICGA organized the WCSC just after WCCC. Engines running the same software, and Hiarcs won it. Stockfish and Komodo would have good chances there.

Is the problem rule #2? Why don't introduce a rule about a separate Championship where derivatives are allowed? (The above sentence would be needed, of course)

But what many people seem to not understand is there's already a organization, and it can be improved a lot with positive proposals. E.g., Adam Hair had an excellent idea about satellite locations around the world, to allow more programmers to participate.

Let us give ICGA positive inputs for the future!

Yes, join the ICGA and join the debate there.

This is something I often considered to do. What prevented me? I'm not a programmer. I only perform a massive work of testing/tuning of The Baron, and I'm afraid I can contribute only a little to the debates. I'll ask for advice to our common friend Richard. I'd feel uneasy, anyway, to partecipate at decisions which I can understand only partially. Let us see.

As far as i Know membership is open to anyone with an interest in Computer games.

[mcostalba]

As far as i Know membership is open to anyone with an interest in Computer games.

Also the tournament is open to any (original) engine, in theory. But seen from outside, it seems that there are few partecipants that rule it (in any sense) and the others that are used by the first group just to make up the number (a world championship with 3 engines would be too much even for ICGA).

My guess, always from outside, is that membership of outsiders would proceed along the same farsa: splitted in people that decide (one of them, Bob, writing here with scaring myopic and obtuse view) and follow up that are just insrumental to the first group but have no real influence at all.

I don't believe you can change ICGA from inside becuase people governing it are fossilized since decades. The only thing absolutely clear to them is that they don't want to give up and retire (as they should).


P.S: Before Don chimes in moved by his "getting older" phobia, I just want to clarify that is not a problem of anagraphic age, but of mentale age: you are mentally old when you are no more able to accept the change but you continue to do what you have always done.

[IWB]

Everybody knows Rybka 3 is above suspicion (even Ken Thompson said so) and yet the boycott continues. Until then the problem remains. First something has to change between the ears of some programmers before the CC community can move on. It has been long enough by now.

Where whould R3 be without the cheating before ...?

But anyhow, you start to late in the chain of causes with your demand. It is VR who has to show some regret. Not just because of his copying but as well because of his disrespect towards the organisation which gave him the titles (and he took them very willingly because they ment money!) VR has to show some hindsight and to appologize THEN, and only THEN, there might be a change on the programmer side!

BTW, it is vey interesting that VR itself is not showing any interest in all of this but some self declared advocates do not rest to keep the whole topic alive. It would already be completly dead and buried without them and we would have a much helthier CC comunity! VR is showing more understanding than these troublemakers. If they dont like it: go make your own organisation and see how far you can get there - Bye bye!


Ingo

[rodolfoleoni]

But anyhow, you start to late in the chain of causes with your demand. It is VR who has to show some regret. Not just because of his copying but as well because of his disrespect towards the organisation which gave him the titles (and he took them very willingly because they ment money!) VR has to show some hindsight and to appologize THEN, and only THEN, there might be a change on the programmer side!

..............................


Ingo

Agreed.

[rodolfoleoni]

As far as i Know membership is open to anyone with an interest in Computer games.

Also the tournament is open to any (original) engine, in theory. But seen from outside, it seems that there are few partecipants that rule it (in any sense) and the others that are used by the first group just to make up the number (a world championship with 3 engines would be too much even for ICGA).

My guess, always from outside, is that membership of outsiders would proceed along the same farsa: splitted in people that decide (one of them, Bob, writing here with scaring myopic and obtuse view) and follow up that are just insrumental to the first group but have no real influence at all.

I don't believe you can change ICGA from inside becuase people governing it are fossilized since decades. The only thing absolutely clear to them is that they don't want to give up and retire (as they should).


P.S: Before Don chimes in moved by his "getting older" phobia, I just want to clarify that is not a problem of anagraphic age, but of mentale age: you are mentally old when you are no more able to accept the change but you continue to do what you have always done.

You give the impression ICGA has choosen participants of WCCC. The Baron participated easily because Tilburg isn't very far from Richard's home. Maybe he'd participate anyway, only Richard knows. To go to an event means to spend much money, and we're living troubled times with this economical crisis which seems endless. But event was really open to any original engine programmer.

I'd be very curious to know Tord viewpoint, as he posted Fabien open letter here. I've got the impression he's gone from Stockfish project, maybe because of disagreements with you about ICGA, clones, etc. But, being this one only an impression, I'd like to hear from you how things are inside the Team. With the hope to not offend you.