We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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chrisw
Posts: 4789
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:44 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:09 pm
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 [/pgn]
Bg7
[/quote]
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 [/pgn]
[/quote]

Ned7
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:59 pm
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 [/pgn]
Ned7
[/quote]

[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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chrisw
Posts: 4789
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 11:10 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:59 pm
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 [/pgn]
Ned7
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O [/pgn]
[/quote]

O-O
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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 11:32 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 11:10 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:59 pm
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 [/pgn]
Ned7
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O [/pgn]
O-O
[/quote]

:shock:
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 12:29 am
chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 11:32 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 11:10 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:59 pm
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 [/pgn]
Ned7
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O [/pgn]
O-O
My friend Dragon2 MCTS with contempt = 180 does NOT play 8. 0-0 No matter what time control we use :?:
[/quote]

I used 150 Contempt, changed some of the other default settings to our latest recommendations (as allowed by agreement), and used 19 threads on a 10 core i9. Also I noticed that I can't always reproduce the same move even with identical settings and time, which is a well known MP consequence. Most moves are reproducible, but when two or three are close in score it's pretty random.
Komodo rules!
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 11:32 pm
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O [/pgn]
O-O
[/quote]

[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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chrisw
Posts: 4789
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 1:38 am
chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 11:32 pm
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O [/pgn]
O-O
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 [/pgn]
[/quote]

Ne5
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User avatar
towforce
Posts: 12792
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:57 am
Location: Birmingham UK
Full name: Graham Laight

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by towforce »

Uri Blass wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 4:40 pm I think basicallly it is better not to make comments about how much advantage one side has during the game.

I am resisting the urge to share my views about the progress of the game going forward.

You're a strong player Uri - how do you do against strong computers with knight odds at rapid time controls?
Human chess is partly about tactics and strategy, but mostly about memory
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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

towforce wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:45 am
Uri Blass wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 4:40 pm I think basicallly it is better not to make comments about how much advantage one side has during the game.

I am resisting the urge to share my views about the progress of the game going forward.

You're a strong player Uri - how do you do against strong computers with knight odds at rapid time controls?
Well I believe that all depend on the TC, if you give Uri or anybody of his strength at least 15 minutes per move and either Stockfish or Dragon 2 MCTS 15 minutes total to make all the moves, my money would be on Uri with a Knight Odds, but if Uri play on www.Chess.com against Dragon 2 MCTS both having 15' + 10" TC then I would pick Dragon 2 MCTS. Remember Chrisw is playing semi correspondence where he take 1 minute per move and Dragon only has 15 Minutes total for the entire game, so if the game take 50 moves times 50 minutes for Chrisw whereas Dragon only has 15 minutes total. :roll:

Note: I would like to bring this issue back again I believe that the Correspondence chess Champion with the help of at least a 2700 rated engine can defeat any of the Top engine in a correspondence game of chess https://en.chessbase.com/post/better-th ... ubicic-1-2
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:58 am
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 [/pgn]
Ne5
[/quote]

[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "33"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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