We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

Uri Blass wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 11:37 pm I think it is unfair that Chessqueen and towforce post comments about the game.
These comments may change the result of the game.
Thank Uri, this it was only a simple observation, I will wait at least a week to see the result without comments.
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:46 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:30 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:07 pm
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
Bxf3
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "21"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5[/pgn]
exd5
[/quote]

[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "23"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 3:49 am
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:46 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:30 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:07 pm
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
Bxf3
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "21"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5[/pgn]
exd5
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "23"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 * [/pgn]
[/quote]

I am convinced that if this game was played on www.chess.com with a T/C 15'+10" Dragon2 MCTS would at least Draw :roll:
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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 4:26 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 3:49 am
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:46 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:30 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:07 pm
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
Bxf3
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "21"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5[/pgn]
exd5
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "23"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 * [/pgn]
I am convinced that if this game was played on www.chess.com with a T/C 15'+10" Dragon2 MCTS would at least Draw :roll:
[/quote]

Keep it to yourself, but try this position with any engine rated below 2575 on CCRL and see if Black can beat either Stockfish ot Dragon 2 MCTS ? Please do NOT post anything here. :roll:
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chrisw
Posts: 4789
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 3:49 am
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:46 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:30 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:07 pm
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
Bxf3
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "21"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5[/pgn]
exd5
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "23"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 [/pgn]
[/quote]

Ne5
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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

towforce wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 11:35 am
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 3:09 pm
towforce wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 2:19 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:58 amAt that pace this game will finish by the end of June 2021 :shock:

There's a time zone issue: it would help if a European played the dragon's moves (unfortunately, I cannot volunteer right now).
Okay, but they could have used Zoom ==>

As a spectator, this game feels more like correspondence chess than rapid chess to me. :)
We both forgot to read this Agreement between Mr. Kaufman and Mr. Chrisw " So, probably the laptop. I guess, being reasonable, can human hold against computer, I’ld suggest “friendly” correspondence conditions for me and game in 15 for you. I’m pretty busy right now.
Alternatively, play move by move in public forum. I’ll have to trust you to stick to move as game in 15, and you’ll have to trust me to not ask Stockfish. Anyway, you could tell if I was using comp help. And kibitzers could keep their mouths shut.
Ed’s forum? I’m sure he could set something up."

Therefore, it is semi correspondence for Chrisw and for Dragon2 MCTS game in 15 minutes, but chrisw once he see the response move posted here from Mr. Kaufman will not take more than 1 minute per move.

Note: If Mr. Chrisw is able to hold a least a draw against Dragon2 MCTS it is a great human achievement, since I tried 4 different engines rated from 2530 to 2600 by CCRL and none of them was able to win against Stockfish 13 NNUE using the latest posted position at TC 15'+1", which clearly tell me that human know better how to use a Knight Odds than most engines rated lower than 2600 by CCRL. Anyway, this will be an interesting game to check daily, since Mr. Chrisw is holding his game very strongly against Dragon2 MCTS so far.
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Uri Blass
Posts: 11156
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Uri Blass »

I think basicallly it is better not to make comments about how much advantage one side has during the game.
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 9:49 am
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "23"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 [/pgn]
Ne5
[/quote]

[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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chrisw
Posts: 4789
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:03 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 9:49 am
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "23"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 [/pgn]
Ne5
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 [/pgn]
[/quote]

Bg7
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:09 pm
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 [/pgn]
[/quote]

Bg7
[/quote]
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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