Chess grandmaster Hans Niemann sues champion Magnus Carlsen, others for $100 million over cheating claim

[Level-4-Lab]

Carlsen's response

"And he fails to allege any unreasonable restraint of trade under either the per se rule or the rule of reason. "

'Unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down.

I mean. when a Iranian chess player refuses to participate in a tournament because an Israeli player is a participant....what happens? How does FIDE feel about such 'boycotts'. I know Firouzja simply renounced his citizenship and moved to France so he would not have to deal with that. That seems to have been his only option. To me, the whole idea of such a boycott in the first place is unreasonable.

But...Hans has no such option. If a tournament wants Magnus to play, they would never also invite Hans. Far fetched? Well, Hans is rated just under 2700 and Magnus DOES find himself playing players at that rating. It is perhaps not unreasonable for one to think Hans career trajectory will be affected by this boycott...particularly with Magnus having more time to play in more tournaments as he does not have to spend all that time/effort defending his title.

I'm just saying...'unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down in something like this.

You're conveniently avoiding mention of the fact that Hans Niemann is an admitted multiple-time cheater in chess. This would certainly come up in any serious debate as to what is reasonable or unreasonable with regard to Niemann's future chess event invitations. This is not something Magnus Carlsen has had to deal with previously as nobody else in the FIDE top 50 has a similar tarnished reputation as does Niemann. And would also probably explain why Carlsen has never withdrawn from an event before.

[CornfedForever]

Carlsen's response

"And he fails to allege any unreasonable restraint of trade under either the per se rule or the rule of reason. "

'Unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down.

I mean. when a Iranian chess player refuses to participate in a tournament because an Israeli player is a participant....what happens? How does FIDE feel about such 'boycotts'. I know Firouzja simply renounced his citizenship and moved to France so he would not have to deal with that. That seems to have been his only option. To me, the whole idea of such a boycott in the first place is unreasonable.

But...Hans has no such option. If a tournament wants Magnus to play, they would never also invite Hans. Far fetched? Well, Hans is rated just under 2700 and Magnus DOES find himself playing players at that rating. It is perhaps not unreasonable for one to think Hans career trajectory will be affected by this boycott...particularly with Magnus having more time to play in more tournaments as he does not have to spend all that time/effort defending his title.

I'm just saying...'unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down in something like this.

You're conveniently avoiding mention of the fact that Hans Niemann is an admitted multiple-time cheater in chess. This would certainly come up in any serious debate as to what is reasonable or unreasonable with regard to Niemann's future chess event invitations. This is not something Magnus Carlsen has had to deal with previously as nobody else in the FIDE top 50 has a similar tarnished reputation as does Niemann. And would also probably explain why Carlsen has never withdrawn from an event before.

Nope, nothing convenient or otherwise - it's all on this forum to read. Yes, Hans cheated multiple times online. To a lesser degree (although in $$ tournaments) Magnus has as well. Chess.com seems to catch titled players (even GM's...) all the time. No need to drag all that up and I don't want to engage in that discussion again. I'm not advocating either way...and I'm on record here as saying at some point in his life he may have cheated OTB...maybe 60%/40% in favor. But, I may be completely wrong, he may never have cheated OTB.

Oh, you mentioned 'top 50'. There is a certain player from Firouzia's part of the world in the top 30 I believe who has been caught and admitted to cheating...online as Hans has. Yet Magnus recently played him OTB....another player (if Jesse Karai is to be believed) German as I recall, he plays OTB. Anyway, beyond those examples, you might ask yourself why HE is the only one boycotting Hans OTB.

Again though, I don't want to discuss beyond this....brings out all sorts of nastiness is people.

[Level-4-Lab]

Carlsen's response

"And he fails to allege any unreasonable restraint of trade under either the per se rule or the rule of reason. "

'Unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down.

I mean. when a Iranian chess player refuses to participate in a tournament because an Israeli player is a participant....what happens? How does FIDE feel about such 'boycotts'. I know Firouzja simply renounced his citizenship and moved to France so he would not have to deal with that. That seems to have been his only option. To me, the whole idea of such a boycott in the first place is unreasonable.

But...Hans has no such option. If a tournament wants Magnus to play, they would never also invite Hans. Far fetched? Well, Hans is rated just under 2700 and Magnus DOES find himself playing players at that rating. It is perhaps not unreasonable for one to think Hans career trajectory will be affected by this boycott...particularly with Magnus having more time to play in more tournaments as he does not have to spend all that time/effort defending his title.

I'm just saying...'unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down in something like this.

You're conveniently avoiding mention of the fact that Hans Niemann is an admitted multiple-time cheater in chess. This would certainly come up in any serious debate as to what is reasonable or unreasonable with regard to Niemann's future chess event invitations. This is not something Magnus Carlsen has had to deal with previously as nobody else in the FIDE top 50 has a similar tarnished reputation as does Niemann. And would also probably explain why Carlsen has never withdrawn from an event before.

Nope, nothing convenient or otherwise - it's all on this forum to read. Yes, Hans cheated multiple times online. To a lesser degree (although in $$ tournaments) Magnus has as well. Chess.com seems to catch titled players (even GM's...) all the time. No need to drag all that up and I don't want to engage in that discussion again. I'm not advocating either way...and I'm on record here as saying at some point in his life he may have cheated OTB...maybe 60%/40% in favor. But, I may be completely wrong, he may never have cheated OTB.

Oh, you mentioned 'top 50'. There is a certain player from Firouzia's part of the world in the top 30 I believe who has been caught and admitted to cheating...online as Hans has. Yet Magnus recently played him OTB....another player (if Jesse Karai is to be believed) German as I recall, he plays OTB. Anyway, beyond those examples, you might ask yourself why HE is the only one boycotting Hans OTB.

Again though, I don't want to discuss beyond this....brings out all sorts of nastiness is people.

What do you mean "nope" lol. Go back and read your own comment if you're confused. You CLEARLY AND CONVENIENTLY avoided mention of the fact that Hans Niemann is an admitted, multiple time cheater in the game of chess, who also lied about how much cheating and how recently he cheated.

My reply was specifically to your post, not "the forum".

There is something you should educate yourself on....online chess....hold your breath for this one..... IS CHESS! For you to defend a guy who cheater over 100 times in online chess, and also did so for monetary profit, is like saying that someone who raped a hundred women on a boat would never do so on an airplane, even though there is evidence suggesting that they might have raped someone on an airplane. Your line of "reasoning" doesn't make a shred of logical sense. Magnus has never used an engine to assist him with making moves in ANY form of the game of chess, nor has he ever been accused of such. You are talking out of your butt yet again! And much of Hans Niemann's cheating was for financial gain as he was selling advertising on a for profit stream.

I'm hearing some mention of "a certain player", but no name is given. Is this your idea of a rebuttal? LMAO! What a great strategy criminal defense lawyers are missing out on: "Your honor, my client deserves leniency because a certain someone also committed the same crime he did". The massive amount of cheating that Hans Niemann did in online chess isn't the only damning evidence against him. There is also his infantile post-mortems where he comes across like a vastly weaker player, his intolerable arrogance and narcissism, and his refusal to even discuss some games but instead ending the interview with the refrain: "the chess speaks for itself". There is also his extremely unlikely meteoric rise in the rankings that occured much later than other historical talents, etc, etc, etc. Does all this add up to a smoking gun that Hans Niemann definitely cheated in his maiden OTB game with Magnus Carlsen? No. Does it suggest that there is plenty of reason to be suspicious of his and continue to investigate and discuss the possibility? A resounding YES!

And if you didn't want to discuss this anymore, then why are you continuing to discuss it? That doesn't make a shred of sense! There was no need for you to reply to my post. Obviously you DO want to continue discussing it. At this point it's obvious why you're supporting Hans Niemann in this whole thing as you and he have a lot in common. You also are no stranger to lying.

If you are not capable of discussing matters without being nasty, then that is on you, not the topic of discussion or anyone else.

I don't want you to reply if all you're going to do is spin more lies and whine about how you do not want to discuss this as you continue to discuss this.

[CornfedForever]

I'm hearing some mention of "a certain player", but no name is given. Is this your idea of a rebuttal? LMAO!

Also from Iran...does that help you? Check the current rating list if it doesn't.

I don't want you to reply if all you're going to do is spin more lies and whine about how you do not want to discuss this as you continue to discuss this.

I simply posted a link to the new article and pointed out that 'unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down, that I am basically agnostic on the 'OTB' cheating insinuation by Magnus...but that it is perhaps not "reasonable" to presume the current World Champions accusation and singling out one person alone is/will not have repercussions on the accused's ability to freely play in OTB tournaments.

Argue with yourself if you wish, I've got better things to do.

[syzygy]

Carlsen's response

"And he fails to allege any unreasonable restraint of trade under either the per se rule or the rule of reason. "

'Unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down.

I mean. when a Iranian chess player refuses to participate in a tournament because an Israeli player is a participant....what happens? How does FIDE feel about such 'boycotts'. I know Firouzja simply renounced his citizenship and moved to France so he would not have to deal with that. That seems to have been his only option. To me, the whole idea of such a boycott in the first place is unreasonable.

But...Hans has no such option. If a tournament wants Magnus to play, they would never also invite Hans. Far fetched? Well, Hans is rated just under 2700 and Magnus DOES find himself playing players at that rating. It is perhaps not unreasonable for one to think Hans career trajectory will be affected by this boycott...particularly with Magnus having more time to play in more tournaments as he does not have to spend all that time/effort defending his title.

I'm just saying...'unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down in something like this.

Carlsen has the right to decide for himself that he longer wishes to play Niemann, whether or not that hurts Niemann's feelings or career. This cannot be reasonably disputed. Carlsen is not enslaved.

The question is if Carlsen made a conspiratorial agreement with chess.com (see p. 25). Carlsen seems to refer to this submission by chess.com:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 8.46.0.pdf

1. Niemann’s federal antitrust claim (Count III) suffers from multiple incurable defects and should be dismissed. First, the AC fails to plausibly allege there was any conspiracy, express or inferred, between Chess.com and the other defendants. Second, Niemann does not have standing to bring an antitrust claim, as the AC makes no reference or allegation with respect to harm to competition, instead only alleging that Niemann suffered individual harm. And lastly, even if the AC did allege there was a conspiratorial agreement, the AC fails to allege how any such agreement would constitute an unreasonable restraint on trade. Chess.com’s actions as alleged in the AC were not inherently anticompetitive, and the AC does not even identify the market that allegedly suffered any anticompetitive effect.

I have not now checked what Niemann wrote on this in his complaint, but one could probably make a case that chess.com has a monopoly position in online chess, and that it is therefore not entirely free to ban professional players as it sees fit. At the same time, chess.com obviously must be allowed to take measures against cheating players, so this is more a question of fair procedure. Given that chess.com's way of dealing with cheating does not seem to amount to a "fair trial" (unless I simply know too little about it), I suspect that a court will feel free to review chess.com's decision to ban Niemann (although it is not clear to me that Niemann is asking for this).

In any event, I don't easily see how an agreement or coordination between Carlsen and chess.com could have added to Niemann's suffering. Chess.com is not being blackmailed by Carlsen or anything like that.

The electronic file of the case:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/65 ... v-carlsen/

[Level-4-Lab]

I'm hearing some mention of "a certain player", but no name is given. Is this your idea of a rebuttal? LMAO!

Also from Iran...does that help you? Check the current rating list if it doesn't.

I don't want you to reply if all you're going to do is spin more lies and whine about how you do not want to discuss this as you continue to discuss this.

I simply posted a link to the new article and pointed out that 'unreasonable' is a hard thing to pin down, that I am basically agnostic on the 'OTB' cheating insinuation by Magnus...but that it is perhaps not "reasonable" to presume the current World Champions accusation and singling out one person alone is/will not have repercussions on the accused's ability to freely play in OTB tournaments.

Argue with yourself if you wish, I've got better things to do.

The last time I checked, "Also from Iran" isn't the name of a single person on planet Earth, let alone a top 50 FIDE rated chess player. You're definitely the one who needs help here, not me.

You didn't "simply" anything. You're constantly contradicting yourself and spinning lies. You keep whining about not wanting to discuss/argue/etc, yet all you do is argue, even to the point of following forum members around just to try to harass and annoy them. You clearly have nothing better, or in fact anything at all to do as you're continuing to try to get me to interact with you even though you have nothing of value to say and none of your replies are topical.

[Level-4-Lab]

I only asked what you thought of the performance rating at the US Championship...NEVER said it was 'proof' of anything and have NEVER pointed to anything as saying it was 'proof' Hans was not cheating OTB.

It's likely your habit to take things out of context.

The rest of what I said reads (in red): I only asked what you thought of the performance rating at the US Championship...NEVER said it was 'proof' of anything and have NEVER pointed to anything as saying it was 'proof' Hans was not cheating OTB. In a world where people are tying themselves in knots to produce 'meaningful' (or otherwise) statistics to implicate OTB cheating by Hans to inflate his rating, it does appear to be the best argument against it. Oh, and I NEVER said or suggested you might think Hans cheated at the US Championships...so I'm not sure why you even bring that up.

It's beginning to sound like you are trolling me, so please stop!

You are the king of blabla since ever you registered here, usually blocked like cheesequack, but I made an exception for once.

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Very well said!

[Chessqueen]

I only asked what you thought of the performance rating at the US Championship...NEVER said it was 'proof' of anything and have NEVER pointed to anything as saying it was 'proof' Hans was not cheating OTB.

It's likely your habit to take things out of context.

The rest of what I said reads (in red): I only asked what you thought of the performance rating at the US Championship...NEVER said it was 'proof' of anything and have NEVER pointed to anything as saying it was 'proof' Hans was not cheating OTB. In a world where people are tying themselves in knots to produce 'meaningful' (or otherwise) statistics to implicate OTB cheating by Hans to inflate his rating, it does appear to be the best argument against it. Oh, and I NEVER said or suggested you might think Hans cheated at the US Championships...so I'm not sure why you even bring that up.

It's beginning to sound like you are trolling me, so please stop!

You are the king of blabla since ever you registered here, usually blocked like cheesequack, but I made an exception for once.

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Very well said!

This is the latest between GM Niemann vs GM Carlsen lawsuit ==>

[CornfedForever]

This is the latest between GM Niemann vs GM Carlsen lawsuit ==>

I've been shown on TV playing chess... I've been interviewed on TV about playing chess in the biggest tourney every in my state. Perhaps I am officially a 'public figure' and never knew it. I guess Magnus can imply anything about me he wishes.

[M ANSARI]

You guys are still at this ??? Hans Nieman is an absolute fraud and cheater and is a disgusting creep that has needs to be banned for life from any competitive chess tournament. It is so glaringly obvious that he cheated over the board and the issue is not "IF" ... it is "HOW". Focus should be on how he cheated and how to prevent such cheating in competitive chess. Creeps like him should be banned for life instead of having goupies that are infatuated with "bad boy syndrome" trying to make excuses for him. Even murderers on death row have fan bases so of course I am not surprised that here it is the same. So let's stop making excuses for this piece of shit and try to figure out how to best prevent such creeps from destroying competitive chess.