Dell Computer Problem

[bob]

Dear readers,

As I frequently admit, I'm a computer dummy. Because of my ignorance, I was taken advantage of by Dell. But surely I'm not the only victim. Here's the situation:

About 10-months ago I bought a Dell Dimension E521 AMD dual core, 64-bit computer that was advertised in a Dell email. I thought this would be a fast computer that would be of great assistance in checking my correspondence chess analyses.

But, when the PC arrived, I found that only one cpu operates, and then only at a 32-bit level. That's because the MS XP operating system is only 32-bit software.

I've called Dell many times since then because the PC is under warranty till 2009. Most Dell staff just play "stupid" and transfer me from sales to customer support to tech service and back and forth. I spent over an hour today alone being transferred within Dell and even outside Dell (to Alienware), but nobody addresses Dell's false advertising.

I tell them I don't plan to sue them, even though they sold me what they advertised as as a 64-bit dual core PC that doesn't deliver either dual core or 64-bits with their operating system. I just want them to fix it. Finally, it developed that some staff admitted that they don't/can't sell Windows XP or Vista in 64-bit form. They told me to buy it separately from MS!

One Dell tech guy told me to replace my PC with a new Dell 4-core computer for $1200 and sent me a new email advert. But when I pressed him, he admitted it only comes with a 32-bit Vista OS!

Surely I can't be the sole victim of Dell's false advertising. Is anybody else familiar with this problem?

Does it make sense to just buy a new 64-bit OS for the existing PC, or should I just replace the PC with a newer/faster PC with a properly mated OS and give this one to my kids to use? They need one anyway.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

All the best,
Steve

Simple solution:

download Fedora 9, boot and install it, and problem solved.

[geots]

Stephen, im in the same boat as you are as far as computer knowledge goes. The best advice i can give you is what i do: i have a friend who is really, really, really good with this stuff- and i dont make a purchasing move without consulting him first. Actually my latest was a dual core 32 bit Vista that can be upgraded to 64 bit- but he built it himself and gave it to me- i got really lucky there. The point being however that they will take people like me and you to the cleaners- have a good back-up guy to consult before these types of purchases. Just my 2 cents worth.


Best,

[jdart]

Personally I have not found a reason to run Vista (compatibility is ok with XP on the hardware I have) and there are reasons not to (resource usage, among other others). I'm going to "upgrade" when there's a reason. But Microsoft is going to stop retail shipment of XP soon, so now is your chance to get it and stick with it, if that's your choice.

--Jon

[Eelco de Groot]

Sorry if this off-topic here, but on the issue of 64-bit vs 32-bits chess can somebody give a percentage or nodes per second estimate how much faster Glaurung 2.1 64-bits is, compared to Glaurung 2.1 32-bits?

I'm facing a bit of the same difficulty that Stephen has in that the company I would perhaps like to buy a system from just does not deliver them with any 64 bit operating system. I can understand that up to a point, because there are still incompatibility issues if programs or hardware don't have proper 64 bit drivers, and companies that have to make the drivers of 64 bit versions use the argument that 64 bit operating systems are not in demand. It is a bit of a vicious circle.

As far as I know chessprograms are about the only type of software where 64-bit performance for some programs really outstrips 32 bit and that is only when they incorporate bitboards. Rybka profits from 64 bit, Crafty does, Toga does not, Shredder and Hiarcs AFAIK not, as far as I know Fritz is not yet bitboard but not sure, Glaurung does use bitboards more than in previous versions but I don't really know how much that affects speed?

One possible solution I am thinking about is making a Dual boot system, let the company install their Vista 32 in one partition and for now have an empty partition or two empty partitions on your harddisk where you can later install either

• Linux (is always 64 bit can be used for instance to run Glaurung)
• Vista 64 bit (Note: if you have the Retail version of 32 bit Vista, i.e. the complete version on DVD or CD, for a small price Microsoft can send you the 64 bits version to upgrade to. But if Vista is preinstalled when you buy it, this is cheaper - it is still 100 € difference for a Retail version, Vista in a box- but then you usually don't get the Retail version with a system; you get no DVD to upgrade from
• Windows XP 64 bit (Not compatible with everything)

At least with a dual boot system you have the advantage that in case of programs with incompatibilities there is always also a 32 bit operating system where this program can be installed.

Stephen one thing I do not understand; you say you can use only one processor on your present system but I think there you are mistaken, Vista can use both cores of your AMD chip, it does not need to be 64 bit Vista to do that.

Regards, Eelco

[Mark]

Hi Stephen-

Here's my story: I recently needed to get a new computer and wanted a 64-bit operating system, mainly to run chess programs faster. I had heard about problems with drivers, etc. so I decided to get a system with Vista64 already installed. The local Circuit City had an HP Q6600 quad core system with Vista64, 4GB ram, and a 750GB hard drive for under $900 (without the monitor). No problems at all hooking up my HP printers and scanners. However, an old version of Mathematica didn't work and neither did Acrobat 5.0, so you may have to upgrade some software. All things considered, I'm pretty happy with the computer and the 64-bit OS. And the chess programs that take advantage of the 64 bit OS and the quad core processor are _very_ fast!

Mark

Hi Mark,

Wow! Great story! I'm jealous now.

I don't use my present Dell for anything other than: chess programs, Bookup chess database, and internet/email. So, perhaps I don't have to worry about the driver problems that you and others mentioned.

Do you think I should upgrade my present Dell Dimension E521 dual core by purchasing a Vista 64? Or should I just give it to my kids (who need a better PC than they have now) and build a quad, with or w/o a 64-bit OS?

Here's the Dell quad-core they tried to sell me today:

http://www.dell.com/content/products/fe ... lid=698209

If the link doesn't work, the gist of the offer is:

XPS 420
Intel® Core™2 Q6600 Quad-Core (8MB L2 cache,2.4GHz,1066FSB)

Operating System
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium with Digital Cable Support

Monitor
22 inch SP2208WFP Wide Flat Panel with Webcam and Mic

Memory
4GB2 Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 4 DIMMs

Hard Drive
500GB3 - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache

Finally, until recently, I read here that Intel CPUs have finally surpassed AMDs for chess engine performance. Is that true of Q6600 series too, or do the compiler problems remain that slow chess engine speeds?

Thanks in advance.

All the best,
Steve

Hi Stephen-

It would be easiest to just give the laptop to the kids and buy an intel quad core with vista 64 already installed. The 64 bit operating system will give you about a 60% speed increase for Rybka. For me, it was easiest to buy a system from the local Circuit City rather than mail order. At least that way, if something doesn't work right you can return it a little easier.

If you like tinkering around with computers, as many chess enthusiasts seem to, you could mail order parts, assemble the computer yourself, and overclock it to get the best performance for the money. I just chose to give up some performance for a more convenient purchase.

Best of luck to you!

Mark

[Stephen Ham]

Sorry if this off-topic here, but on the issue of 64-bit vs 32-bits chess can somebody give a percentage or nodes per second estimate how much faster Glaurung 2.1 64-bits is, compared to Glaurung 2.1 32-bits?

I'm facing a bit of the same difficulty that Stephen has in that the company I would perhaps like to buy a system from just does not deliver them with any 64 bit operating system. I can understand that up to a point, because there are still incompatibility issues if programs or hardware don't have proper 64 bit drivers, and companies that have to make the drivers of 64 bit versions use the argument that 64 bit operating systems are not in demand. It is a bit of a vicious circle.

As far as I know chessprograms are about the only type of software where 64-bit performance for some programs really outstrips 32 bit and that is only when they incorporate bitboards. Rybka profits from 64 bit, Crafty does, Toga does not, Shredder and Hiarcs AFAIK not, as far as I know Fritz is not yet bitboard but not sure, Glaurung does use bitboards more than in previous versions but I don't really know how much that affects speed?

One possible solution I am thinking about is making a Dual boot system, let the company install their Vista 32 in one partition and for now have an empty partition or two empty partitions on your harddisk where you can later install either

• Linux (is always 64 bit can be used for instance to run Glaurung)
• Vista 64 bit (Note: if you have the Retail version of 32 bit Vista, i.e. the complete version on DVD or CD, for a small price Microsoft can send you the 64 bits version to upgrade to. But if Vista is preinstalled when you buy it, this is cheaper - it is still 100 € difference for a Retail version, Vista in a box- but then you usually don't get the Retail version with a system; you get no DVD to upgrade from
• Windows XP 64 bit (Not compatible with everything)

At least with a dual boot system you have the advantage that in case of programs with incompatibilities there is always also a 32 bit operating system where this program can be installed.

Stephen one thing I do not understand; you say you can use only one processor on your present system but I think there you are mistaken, Vista can use both cores of your AMD chip, it does not need to be 64 bit Vista to do that.

Regards, Eelco

Hi Eelco,

Perhaps I was unclear. The OS I got with my PC was Windows XP 32-bit, not Vista.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply, Eelco.

All the best,
Steve

[Stephen Ham]

Dear readers,

As I frequently admit, I'm a computer dummy. Because of my ignorance, I was taken advantage of by Dell. But surely I'm not the only victim. Here's the situation:

About 10-months ago I bought a Dell Dimension E521 AMD dual core, 64-bit computer that was advertised in a Dell email. I thought this would be a fast computer that would be of great assistance in checking my correspondence chess analyses.

But, when the PC arrived, I found that only one cpu operates, and then only at a 32-bit level. That's because the MS XP operating system is only 32-bit software.

I've called Dell many times since then because the PC is under warranty till 2009. Most Dell staff just play "stupid" and transfer me from sales to customer support to tech service and back and forth. I spent over an hour today alone being transferred within Dell and even outside Dell (to Alienware), but nobody addresses Dell's false advertising.

I tell them I don't plan to sue them, even though they sold me what they advertised as as a 64-bit dual core PC that doesn't deliver either dual core or 64-bits with their operating system. I just want them to fix it. Finally, it developed that some staff admitted that they don't/can't sell Windows XP or Vista in 64-bit form. They told me to buy it separately from MS!

One Dell tech guy told me to replace my PC with a new Dell 4-core computer for $1200 and sent me a new email advert. But when I pressed him, he admitted it only comes with a 32-bit Vista OS!

Surely I can't be the sole victim of Dell's false advertising. Is anybody else familiar with this problem?

Does it make sense to just buy a new 64-bit OS for the existing PC, or should I just replace the PC with a newer/faster PC with a properly mated OS and give this one to my kids to use? They need one anyway.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

All the best,
Steve

Simple solution:

download Fedora 9, boot and install it, and problem solved.

Thank you, Dr. Hyatt.

Being a dummy, I googled Fedora 9 and then read several articles about it. I confess I only comprehended a fraction of the texts, but it does indeed seem to be a fantastic project. Wow!

However, since it's Linux, my limited knowledge tells me that some programs (e.g. chess engines) aren't compatible with a Linux OS. For example, when Tord offered his latest Glaurung, he wrote that he had yet to complete Linux binaries - whatever that means.

That said, will Rybka and Toga and other programs work on Fedora 9? Do I need to remove my existing Windows XP at some point?

Thanks again for your kind assistance, Dr. Hyatt.

All the best,
Steve

[Eelco de Groot]

Hi Eelco,

Perhaps I was unclear. The OS I got with my PC was Windows XP 32-bit, not Vista.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply, Eelco.

All the best,
Steve

Hi Steve!,

Sorry, I had not read your post accurately enough. But still, the answer is not very different I think: to use both cores of this chip, as long as it is a single chip, not two separate CPUs and I believe it is just one chip with two cores, Windows XP does not have to be 64-bits! If you look up the little Microsoft utility Task Manager (Taakbeheer on my Dutch computer) by rightclicking at the bottom blue bar down on the screen, this program can be used to view both cores in action. I don't know exactly right now how to configure Task Manager to do this as I only have a single core, but if necessary I could look it up somewhere? At least I'm positive this is true for XP 32 bit Profesional, but I don't think that Windows XP 32 bits Home Edition can't use your two cores, I don't believe Dell would have supplied your system with a Windows version that can not use the multiprocesing potential of your chip - though maybe it cannot use all the 64-bit capabilities, that is true!

Regards, Eelco

[Tord Romstad]

However, since it's Linux, my limited knowledge tells me that some programs (e.g. chess engines) aren't compatible with a Linux OS. For example, when Tord offered his latest Glaurung, he wrote that he had yet to complete Linux binaries - whatever that means.

It just meant that I had been to lazy to do the compiles. Particularly 32-bit Linux took some time, because I didn't have a 32-bit Linux virtual machine installed on my Mac, so I had to take the time to download and install it.

The actual porting work once I had installed 32-bit and 64-bit Linux couldn't have been more trivial. All I had to do was to copy my source code over to the Linux machines and type 'make'.

By the way, I use Ubuntu, not Fedora, but I think Ubuntu-compiled binaries should run fine in Fedora (and vice versa, of course).

For Eelco's question of how much Glaurung profits from 64-bit: It probably depends on the CPU and compiler used. On my Core 2 Duo Mac, the 64-bit version is 41% faster when compiled with the Intel compiler, and 78% faster when compiled with GCC.

Tord

[Werner]

Just tested on my dual under Shredder GUI, each engine running 1CPU

regards