Dell Computer Problem

[Stephen Ham]

Dear readers,

As I frequently admit, I'm a computer dummy. Because of my ignorance, I was taken advantage of by Dell. But surely I'm not the only victim. Here's the situation:

About 10-months ago I bought a Dell Dimension E521 AMD dual core, 64-bit computer that was advertised in a Dell email. I thought this would be a fast computer that would be of great assistance in checking my correspondence chess analyses.

But, when the PC arrived, I found that only one cpu operates, and then only at a 32-bit level. That's because the MS XP operating system is only 32-bit software.

I've called Dell many times since then because the PC is under warranty till 2009. Most Dell staff just play "stupid" and transfer me from sales to customer support to tech service and back and forth. I spent over an hour today alone being transferred within Dell and even outside Dell (to Alienware), but nobody addresses Dell's false advertising.

I tell them I don't plan to sue them, even though they sold me what they advertised as as a 64-bit dual core PC that doesn't deliver either dual core or 64-bits with their operating system. I just want them to fix it. Finally, it developed that some staff admitted that they don't/can't sell Windows XP or Vista in 64-bit form. They told me to buy it separately from MS!

One Dell tech guy told me to replace my PC with a new Dell 4-core computer for $1200 and sent me a new email advert. But when I pressed him, he admitted it only comes with a 32-bit Vista OS!

Surely I can't be the sole victim of Dell's false advertising. Is anybody else familiar with this problem?

Does it make sense to just buy a new 64-bit OS for the existing PC, or should I just replace the PC with a newer/faster PC with a properly mated OS and give this one to my kids to use? They need one anyway.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

All the best,
Steve

[gerold]

Dear readers,

As I frequently admit, I'm a computer dummy. Because of my ignorance, I was taken advantage of by Dell. But surely I'm not the only victim. Here's the situation:

About 10-months ago I bought a Dell Dimension E521 AMD dual core, 64-bit computer that was advertised in a Dell email. I thought this would be a fast computer that would be of great assistance in checking my correspondence chess analyses.

But, when the PC arrived, I found that only one cpu operates, and then only at a 32-bit level. That's because the MS XP operating system is only 32-bit software.

I've called Dell many times since then because the PC is under warranty till 2009. Most Dell staff just play "stupid" and transfer me from sales to customer support to tech service and back and forth. I spent over an hour today alone being transferred within Dell and even outside Dell (to Alienware), but nobody addresses Dell's false advertising.

I tell them I don't plan to sue them, even though they sold me what they advertised as as a 64-bit dual core PC that doesn't deliver either dual core or 64-bits with their operating system. I just want them to fix it. Finally, it developed that some staff admitted that they don't/can't sell Windows XP or Vista in 64-bit form. They told me to buy it separately from MS!

One Dell tech guy told me to replace my PC with a new Dell 4-core computer for $1200 and sent me a new email advert. But when I pressed him, he admitted it only comes with a 32-bit Vista OS!

Surely I can't be the sole victim of Dell's false advertising. Is anybody else familiar with this problem?

Does it make sense to just buy a new 64-bit OS for the existing PC, or should I just replace the PC with a newer/faster PC with a properly mated OS and give this one to my kids to use? They need one anyway.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

All the best,
Steve

Got a buddy that has sent his Dell back for repairs 4 times in one
year. Each time it is returned not fixed. He got rid of it and got
a new HP.

Best to you,

Gerold.

[Nid Hogge]

It seems like you are a bit confused. (You can't be blamed though).

Most modern CPU's support 64-bit operation. You need a 64-bit OS to take advantge of this. Then, you need an application that supports 64-bits.

The naming convention is not Dell's fault, if any, it's AMD. The old dual-cores wer'e adveritsed as AMD64. This is a nice marketing technique that makes you believe you are running 64-bit all the time. Ofcourse, you already know it ain't so. Dell obviously continues with this marketing trick, because, technically, theyr'e right.. the CPU does support 64-bit operation. but 99% of the systems shipped (OEM) comes with 32-bit OS. (XP, Vista).

Going 64-bit OS is risky itself, because there aren't many programs that support it yet, and there are many many driver problems. (That's why Dell and the likes won't ship it yet).

If you get 64-bit OS for your current system, I believe you will see zero difference running your applications. Only exception is Chess engines, that many of them benefit when running 64-bit. If you do alot of analysing of just wanna get some speed boost, this is one area where it could help. Then again it won't cover everything since it is a relatively old machine.

My best advice is - stay away from OEM PC's.. Dell HP it doesn't matter. they sell you overpriced crap 99% of the time.
Build your own machine. this way you have control of your system and you know exactly which parts you are paying for. You don't need to assemble it yourself, just choose the parts and let the store assign it for you.

I bet that Quad they offered you is surrounded by crappy parts as well. You could build a monster PC today for much less than that I guarntee you.

[Dann Corbit]

64 bit Vista requires a really high end machine to work well.
We tried 64 bit Vista here and did not like it. Drivers for things like video cards, disk drives, etc. were sorely lacking and performance was sub-par.

For 64 bit windows we are using this:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx
There are problems with using 64 bit XP also (which is really more a variant of Windows NT than a variant of Windows XP).

Your chess programs will get a real boost from 64 bit technology if they are 64 bit versions (e.g. when you buy Rybka you get both versions in the package). 32 bit programs will see no speed boost. You will also be able to access absurdly large memory spaces -- as much as you want to buy and install on your machine.

If you want a 64 bit machine, get one with a 64 bit OS installed on it. The vendor has already gone through the headache of matching video card drivers, hard disk drivers, etc. to that platform. Just installing a 64 bit OS over top of the old OS on a 32 bit machine is likely to be problematic. That's why Dell won't just upgrade for you -- they probably know it simply is not going to go smoothly.

If you need a 64 bit OS, ask Dell about swapping for a machine with a 64 bit OS pre-installed. These things are bleeding edge for the Windows world and so you will have a bit of a bumpy road no matter what. If the chess programs you use run on Linux, that is another alternative (if you can get the other applications that you need to get work done in Linux flavors, that is). 64 bit Linux is much more mature than 64 bit Windows -- but even at that drivers can be hard to come by for that venture also.

There are lots of people in this forum that have 64 bit operating systems with multiple CPUs. I would ask them for opinions about what they like with their current systems. If worst comes to worst, just return the Dell system as 'unsatisfactory' and buy a system that meets your requirements.

We have new 64 bit systems here now, but I have not received mine yet (they are getting software installed and getting burned in) so I can't really offer any opinion on the one that I will be using.

[kgburcham]

Stephen, I will tell you my 64 bit story. May be a long story not sure.
About 6 months ago I decide to upgrade my Chess PC. I priced the QX 4 core Intel with all the goodies to overclock on air. A little scary to invest because I thought maybe the 8 core would get cheap quick. Didnt happen. Also I noticed that HP and Dell had the Quad Intel 6600 for about a $1000. So I put together a system at the Dell site with the Q6600, 4 gigs Ram, best Video card they offered, sound card, etc...I ordered mine without virus protection, no internet service, and windows Xp Pro 32 bit. At the time Dell did not offer 64 bit XP. When I got my new Dell I reformat and made two boot partitions. One partition was XP Pro 32 and the other partition was the free trial version XP Pro 64. Played with this for some time and did not like the fact that I had to select 64 or 32 everytime I booted up. Also I did not feel comfortable that I was getting full speed up with trial version.
I purchased the full version XP PRO 64 from NewEgg. When I received the 64 bit cd, I deleted one partition and then loaded the 64 XP. Everything was routine except the Network card that came with my Dell was not 64 bit compatible. I ordered a 64 bit Network card from NewEgg, installed, loaded drivers--all routine without any issues. My pc has been running fine since. No problems and I really like the 64 bit speed running the bitboard programs. If you choose to buy a Dell, get plenty of ram if you get the Quad, it fills it fast in test positions. If you get 4 gigs of ram you can set the hash at 2048 and have no problems. Good luck and let us know what you decide to do. Just remembered, Adobe wont run on mine, not 64 bit compatible, pdf files.
kburcham

[Dann Corbit]

Stephen, I will tell you my 64 bit story. May be a {snip}
Just remembered, Adobe wont run on mine, not 64 bit compatible, pdf files.
kburcham

64 bit version of Acrobat:
http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/ ... ftpID=3661

[Mark]

Hi Stephen-

Here's my story: I recently needed to get a new computer and wanted a 64-bit operating system, mainly to run chess programs faster. I had heard about problems with drivers, etc. so I decided to get a system with Vista64 already installed. The local Circuit City had an HP Q6600 quad core system with Vista64, 4GB ram, and a 750GB hard drive for under $900 (without the monitor). No problems at all hooking up my HP printers and scanners. However, an old version of Mathematica didn't work and neither did Acrobat 5.0, so you may have to upgrade some software. All things considered, I'm pretty happy with the computer and the 64-bit OS. And the chess programs that take advantage of the 64 bit OS and the quad core processor are _very_ fast!

Mark

[Stephen Ham]

It seems like you are a bit confused. (You can't be blamed though).

Most modern CPU's support 64-bit operation. You need a 64-bit OS to take advantge of this. Then, you need an application that supports 64-bits.

The naming convention is not Dell's fault, if any, it's AMD. The old dual-cores wer'e adveritsed as AMD64. This is a nice marketing technique that makes you believe you are running 64-bit all the time. Ofcourse, you already know it ain't so. Dell obviously continues with this marketing trick, because, technically, theyr'e right.. the CPU does support 64-bit operation. but 99% of the systems shipped (OEM) comes with 32-bit OS. (XP, Vista).

Going 64-bit OS is risky itself, because there aren't many programs that support it yet, and there are many many driver problems. (That's why Dell and the likes won't ship it yet).

If you get 64-bit OS for your current system, I believe you will see zero difference running your applications. Only exception is Chess engines, that many of them benefit when running 64-bit. If you do alot of analysing of just wanna get some speed boost, this is one area where it could help. Then again it won't cover everything since it is a relatively old machine.

My best advice is - stay away from OEM PC's.. Dell HP it doesn't matter. they sell you overpriced crap 99% of the time.
Build your own machine. this way you have control of your system and you know exactly which parts you are paying for. You don't need to assemble it yourself, just choose the parts and let the store assign it for you.

I bet that Quad they offered you is surrounded by crappy parts as well. You could build a monster PC today for much less than that I guarntee you.

Hi Nid,

Wow! I believe that you know computer hardware and software intimately well. But, I respectfully take issue with the epithet "confused". I'm not confused. Instead, I'm a computer dummy - I'm ignorant. I know chess, but just don't know computers.

I think Dell's advertising is deceptive and thus possibly illegal (e.g. false advertising). When a company advertises a widget with XYZ specs, then one assumes that when they buy that widget, it works in accordance with what's advertised. I bought a computer that's advertised to be a 64-bit dual core. But, the 32-bit OS (this was never mentioned) that came with it prevents me from using the the 64-bit hardware. Also, I only have one cpu working for my Rybka as a result.

As stated, I wanted a dual core 64-bit PC because I want faster computer performance for my chess analyses (I'm a correspondence chess player). I already have Rybka 2.3.2a and know it's available in 64-bit. I've read where others claim significant performance enhancements from their Rybka when they upgraded to a multi-PC with 64-bits.

That said, are the duals/quads/8-core PCs I'm meeting on the Playchess server largely using just 32-bit OSs? If not, then should I upgrade my dual-core to a 64-bit OS too? I only use my PC for chess analyses and for my Bookup database.

I didn't know that Dell and HP are crap and overpriced...until now. Where do you recommend I go, Nid, to build a "monster" PC for chess analyses that offers value for the money? Should I opt for 64-bits for my Rybka, or avoid it for the reasons you recommended?

Thanks in advance for your knowledgeable response.

All the best,
Steve

[Carey]

64 bit Vista requires a really high end machine to work well.
We tried 64 bit Vista here and did not like it. Drivers for things like video cards, disk drives, etc. were sorely lacking and performance was sub-par.

For 64 bit windows we are using this:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx
There are problems with using 64 bit XP also (which is really more a variant of Windows NT than a variant of Windows XP).

Dan, I have to disagree there a little.

XP64 is based on the 64 bit Win2k3 server core and drivers for it are pretty hard to find.

With Vista64, Microsoft 'requires' vendors who provide certified drivers to also provide 64 bit drivers too.

That's not to say it's enforced. Or that the 64 bit drivers work well.

Just that vendors are supposed to provide 64 bit drivers. Which is more than what they are likely to do for XP64.


If he wants to go with XP64, then I would suggest he grab the free trial version and see if he can find all the drivers he needs.

If he can, then he might be more satisfied with it than with Vista64, but that's also a personal taste.

Your chess programs will get a real boost from 64 bit technology if they are 64 bit versions (e.g. when you buy Rybka you get both versions in the package). 32 bit programs will see no speed boost.

Possibly even a reduction in speed. I've been playing with Vista64 for the past few days and an old 8 bit micro test program I was using to check performance ran about 5%-10% slower in 64 bit mode.

Kind of like the old 16 bit DOS days when some 16 bit programs ran faster than with 32 bit DPMI DOS.


Also, he should be aware that finding 64 bit compilers is more difficult. There is not a 64 bit version of GNU C / MingW for Win64.

He will have to go with VC2008 or VC2008Express (with the PSDK installed).

If you need a 64 bit OS, ask Dell about swapping for a machine with a 64 bit OS pre-installed. These things are bleeding edge for the Windows world and so you will have a bit of a bumpy road no matter what. If the chess programs you use run on Linux, that is another alternative (if you can get the other applications that you need to get work done in Linux flavors, that is). 64 bit Linux is much more mature than 64 bit Windows -- but even at that drivers can be hard to come by for that venture also.

That's another option.... Ubuntu can be installed to run from a virtual disk image off a regular windows partition. No reformatting, etc.

It's a heck of a lot easier and more convenient than repartitioning and fullying installing Linux.

So, he could keep his 32 bit OS and just do 64 bits when he wants to.

[Stephen Ham]

Hi Stephen-

Here's my story: I recently needed to get a new computer and wanted a 64-bit operating system, mainly to run chess programs faster. I had heard about problems with drivers, etc. so I decided to get a system with Vista64 already installed. The local Circuit City had an HP Q6600 quad core system with Vista64, 4GB ram, and a 750GB hard drive for under $900 (without the monitor). No problems at all hooking up my HP printers and scanners. However, an old version of Mathematica didn't work and neither did Acrobat 5.0, so you may have to upgrade some software. All things considered, I'm pretty happy with the computer and the 64-bit OS. And the chess programs that take advantage of the 64 bit OS and the quad core processor are _very_ fast!

Mark

Hi Mark,

Wow! Great story! I'm jealous now.

I don't use my present Dell for anything other than: chess programs, Bookup chess database, and internet/email. So, perhaps I don't have to worry about the driver problems that you and others mentioned.

Do you think I should upgrade my present Dell Dimension E521 dual core by purchasing a Vista 64? Or should I just give it to my kids (who need a better PC than they have now) and build a quad, with or w/o a 64-bit OS?

Here's the Dell quad-core they tried to sell me today:

http://www.dell.com/content/products/fe ... lid=698209

If the link doesn't work, the gist of the offer is:

XPS 420
Intel® Core™2 Q6600 Quad-Core (8MB L2 cache,2.4GHz,1066FSB)

Operating System
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium with Digital Cable Support

Monitor
22 inch SP2208WFP Wide Flat Panel with Webcam and Mic

Memory
4GB2 Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 4 DIMMs

Hard Drive
500GB3 - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache

Finally, until recently, I read here that Intel CPUs have finally surpassed AMDs for chess engine performance. Is that true of Q6600 series too, or do the compiler problems remain that slow chess engine speeds?

Thanks in advance.

All the best,
Steve