Black to Play and Draw; Can any Engine See It?

[michiguel]

It does not matter. There is no way black can stop White to place the Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.
Miguel

Why do you think black would stand still?
To be more concrete, please give the moves of such a variation with Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.

As I said, Edmund gave a line already. Please check some posts above.

Miguel

[GenoM]

It does not matter. There is no way black can stop White to place the Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.
Miguel

Why do you think black would stand still?
To be more concrete, please give the moves of such a variation with Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.

As I said, Edmund gave a line already. Please check some posts above.

Miguel

Then a question to Edmund:
after 1...Qb6 2.Qe2 what about 2...Bh4! and not 2...Qa7?

[Edmund]

It does not matter. There is no way black can stop White to place the Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.
Miguel

Why do you think black would stand still?
To be more concrete, please give the moves of such a variation with Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.

As I said, Edmund gave a line already. Please check some posts above.

Miguel

Then a question to Edmund:
after 1...Qb6 2.Qe2 what about 2...Bh4! and not 2...Qa7?

What is the plan behind Bh4 ?
If you want to free the bishop with g4, you are creating very dangerous passed pawns for white. Otherwise the position will probably transpose into my line.

[michiguel]

It does not matter. There is no way black can stop White to place the Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.
Miguel

Why do you think black would stand still?
To be more concrete, please give the moves of such a variation with Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.

As I said, Edmund gave a line already. Please check some posts above.

Miguel

Then a question to Edmund:
after 1...Qb6 2.Qe2 what about 2...Bh4! and not 2...Qa7?

What is the plan behind Bh4 ?
If you want to free the bishop with g4, you are creating very dangerous passed pawns for white. Otherwise the position will probably transpose into my line.

1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ now wins
or even
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3

Miguel

[Edmund]

It does not matter. There is no way black can stop White to place the Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.
Miguel

Why do you think black would stand still?
To be more concrete, please give the moves of such a variation with Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.

As I said, Edmund gave a line already. Please check some posts above.

Miguel

Then a question to Edmund:
after 1...Qb6 2.Qe2 what about 2...Bh4! and not 2...Qa7?

What is the plan behind Bh4 ?
If you want to free the bishop with g4, you are creating very dangerous passed pawns for white. Otherwise the position will probably transpose into my line.

1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ now wins
or even
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3

Miguel

How are you playing after
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ cxb6
or
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3 fxg3 ?

[michiguel]

It does not matter. There is no way black can stop White to place the Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.
Miguel

Why do you think black would stand still?
To be more concrete, please give the moves of such a variation with Ka4, Nb3, Qc3.

As I said, Edmund gave a line already. Please check some posts above.

Miguel

Then a question to Edmund:
after 1...Qb6 2.Qe2 what about 2...Bh4! and not 2...Qa7?

What is the plan behind Bh4 ?
If you want to free the bishop with g4, you are creating very dangerous passed pawns for white. Otherwise the position will probably transpose into my line.

1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ now wins
or even
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3

Miguel

How are you playing after
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ cxb6
or
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3 fxg3 ?

3. g3 fxg3 4. Nxb6+ cxb6 5. f4 gxf4 (or exf4) 6. Qxh5 and now if g2 Qg4+

Miguel

[Edmund]

How are you playing after
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ cxb6
or
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3 fxg3 ?

Ignore my last post please .. looks obvious now.

1. Nxb6+ cxb6 2. g3 Bxg3 (2... fxg3 3. f4 gxf4 4. Qxh5) 3. h4 gxh4 (3... Bxh4 4. Qg2 Kb7 5. Qh3) 4. Qg2 Kb7 5. Qh3

[GenoM]

How are you playing after
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ cxb6
or
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3 fxg3 ?

Ignore my last post please .. looks obvious now.

1. Nxb6+ cxb6 2. g3 Bxg3 (2... fxg3 3. f4 gxf4 4. Qxh5) 3. h4 gxh4 (3... Bxh4 4. Qg2 Kb7 5. Qh3) 4. Qg2 Kb7 5. Qh3

Well, then
[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 b - - 0 45
after 1...Qb6 2.Qe2 --2... Kb7
What is your variation?
If 3.Kb3 (as in your previous post) then just 3...Qa7 4.Nc3 a4+
5.Nxa4 Qa5 6.Nc3 Kc8 7.Qd2 (7.Qc2 with idea of Nc3-e2 -- but then 7...Be1 and white can not break through) 7...Kb7 8.Nb1 Qa7 9.a4 Kb6 10.Ka3 Qa5 11.Qxa5+ Kxa5 12.Nd2 Be1 13.Nb3+ Kb6 14.Kb2 Bb4 15.Kc2 Be1 16.Kd3 Bb4 17.Ke2 Bc3 18.Kf2 h4 19.Ke2 Bb4 20.Kd3 Ba5 21.Kc2 Be1 22.Nc1 Bf2 23.Nb3 Be1 24.Nc1 Bf2 25.Nd3 Bd4 26.Kb3 Ka5 27.Nc1 Be3

[Edmund]

How are you playing after
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ cxb6
or
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3 fxg3 ?

Ignore my last post please .. looks obvious now.

1. Nxb6+ cxb6 2. g3 Bxg3 (2... fxg3 3. f4 gxf4 4. Qxh5) 3. h4 gxh4 (3... Bxh4 4. Qg2 Kb7 5. Qh3) 4. Qg2 Kb7 5. Qh3

Well, then
[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 b - - 0 45
after 1...Qb6 2.Qe2 --2... Kb7
What is your variation?
If 3.Kb3 (as in your previous post) then just 3...Qa7 4.Nc3 a4+
5.Nxa4 Qa5 6.Nc3 Kc8 7.Qd2 (7.Qc2 with idea of Nc3-e2 -- but then 7...Be1 and white can not break through) 7...Kb7 8.Nb1 Qa7 9.a4 Kb6 10.Ka3 Qa5 11.Qxa5+ Kxa5 12.Nd2 Be1 13.Nb3+ Kb6 14.Kb2 Bb4 15.Kc2 Be1 16.Kd3 Bb4 17.Ke2 Bc3 18.Kf2 h4 19.Ke2 Bb4 20.Kd3 Ba5 21.Kc2 Be1 22.Nc1 Bf2 23.Nb3 Be1 24.Nc1 Bf2 25.Nd3 Bd4 26.Kb3 Ka5 27.Nc1 Be3

Yesterday evening, Pradu, Salva and I continued the analysis and already found the threat of a4+! So we decided that Qd2 should be superior. Anyway the position seems to be a draw after all, as white can make no progress in certain lines.

even not playing Qb6 is a good option. Sooner or later Queens will be traded and the Knight has not enough squares to force any of the queenside pawns to be pushed forward. Furthermore the Bishop can come from behind and trap the Knight easily.

[michiguel]

How are you playing after
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. Nxb6+ cxb6
or
1...Qb6 2.Qe2 Bh4 3. g3 fxg3 ?

Ignore my last post please .. looks obvious now.

1. Nxb6+ cxb6 2. g3 Bxg3 (2... fxg3 3. f4 gxf4 4. Qxh5) 3. h4 gxh4 (3... Bxh4 4. Qg2 Kb7 5. Qh3) 4. Qg2 Kb7 5. Qh3

Well, then
[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 b - - 0 45
after 1...Qb6 2.Qe2 --2... Kb7
What is your variation?
If 3.Kb3 (as in your previous post) then just 3...Qa7 4.Nc3 a4+
5.Nxa4 Qa5 6.Nc3 Kc8 7.Qd2 (7.Qc2 with idea of Nc3-e2 -- but then 7...Be1 and white can not break through) 7...Kb7 8.Nb1 Qa7 9.a4 Kb6 10.Ka3 Qa5 11.Qxa5+ Kxa5 12.Nd2 Be1 13.Nb3+ Kb6 14.Kb2 Bb4 15.Kc2 Be1 16.Kd3 Bb4 17.Ke2 Bc3 18.Kf2 h4 19.Ke2 Bb4 20.Kd3 Ba5 21.Kc2 Be1 22.Nc1 Bf2 23.Nb3 Be1 24.Nc1 Bf2 25.Nd3 Bd4 26.Kb3 Ka5 27.Nc1 Be3

Yesterday evening, Pradu, Salva and I continued the analysis and already found the threat of a4+! So we decided that Qd2 should be superior. Anyway the position seems to be a draw after all, as white can make no progress in certain lines.

even not playing Qb6 is a good option. Sooner or later Queens will be traded and the Knight has not enough squares to force any of the queenside pawns to be pushed forward. Furthermore the Bishop can come from behind and trap the Knight easily.

a4+ is important because jeopardizes white chances to penetrate with the King.

White needs to force black to play h4 with, for instance 1... Qb6 2. Qb1! h4 (otherwise, white takes the queen and plays h4 gxh4/ Qh1 winning).

Once black plays h4, an entrance for the Knight is created in g4 through f2 or f1-h2. Black will have to protect those squares with the bishop, which won't allow it to protect a5 simultaneously. So, if white trades queen with the white pawn in a3 (CRITICAL! so the king can go a4-a5) white wins. Blacks chances are good if it AVOIDS trading queens until white plays a4.

Black should play place pieces at Kb7 & Qa7 and possibly wait with Qa7-Qa8 until white plays a4 and then play Kb6-Qa5.

This may be a draw but black need to be very careful in its maneuvers.

Miguel