Can white win?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

Hobacle wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 5:31 pm
Hobacle wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 4:20 pm I have this one new, but it needs to be proven. It's too tight:
[pgn][Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date ""]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "5Nbn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/6P1/4k2K w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1. Kg1 Ke2 2. Nd7 Ke1 3. Nc5 Ke2 4. Nb3 Ke1 5. Nd4 Kd1 6. Kf1 Kd2 7. Nb5 Kd1 8.
Nd6 Kd2 9. Kf2 Kd3 10. Ne4 Kc2 11. Ke2 Kc1 12. Nc3 Kc2 13. Nb5 Kb3 14. Kd2 Kb4
15. Nc3 Kc4 16. Nd1 Kb4 17. Nb2 Kb3 18. Nd3 Kc4 19. Nc1 Kd4 20. Nb3+ Kc4 21.
Kc2 Kb4 22. Nd2 Ka4 23. Kc3 Ka3 24. Nb3 Ka4 25. Nc1 Ka3 26. Kc2 Ka4 27. Na2 Ka3
28. Nc3 Kb4 29. Nb1 Kc4 30. Na3+ Kb4 31. Kb2 Ka4 32. Nc2 Kb5 33. Kb3 Kc5 34.
Kc3 Kb5 35. Kd4 Ka5 36. Kc5 Ka4 37. Kc4 Ka5 38. Nd4 Ka6 39. Kc5 Ka5 40. Nb5 Ka4
41. Kc4 Ka5 42. Nc3 Kb6 43. Kd5 Ka6 44. Kc6 Ka5 45. Kc5 Ka6 46. Nd5 Ka5 47. Ne7
Ka4 48. Kc4 Ka3 49. Kc3 Ka2 50. Nxg8 Kb1 51. Kd2 Kb2 52. Ne7 Kb3 53. Nd5 Kc4
54. Nc3 Kb4 55. Nd1 Kc4 56. Nb2+ Kd4 57. Nd3 Kc4 58. Nc1 Kd4 59. Nb3+ Kc4 60.
Kc2 Kb4 61. Nd2 Ka4 62. Kc3 Ka3 63. Nb3 Ka4 64. Nc1 Ka3 65. Kc2 Ka4 66. Na2 Ka3
67. Nc3 Kb4 68. Nb1 Kc4 69. Na3+ Kb4 70. Kb2 Ka4 71. Nc2 Kb5 72. Kb3 Kc5 73.
Kc3 Kb5 74. Kd4 Ka5 75. Kc5 Ka4 76. Kc4 Ka5 77. Nd4 Ka6 78. Kc5 Ka5 79. Nb5 Ka4
80. Kc4 Ka5 81. Nc3 Kb6 82. Kd5 Ka6 83. Kc6 Ka5 84. Kc5 Ka6 85. Nd5 Ka5 86. Nb6
Ka6 87. Nc4 Kb7 88. Kd6 Ka6 89. Kc6 Ka7 90. Nd6 Ka6 91. Nb7 Ka7 92. Nc5 Kb8 93.
Kd7 Ka7 94. Ke7 Kb6 95. Ne4 Kb5 96. Kf8 Kc4 97. Kg8 Kd3 98. Kxh7 Ke2 99. Kxh8
Kf1 100. Nd6 Kxg2 101. Nxf7 Kxf3 102. fxg6 1-0

[/pgn]
Oh, I ignored something like 43...Kb7! 44.Kc5 Kc7 45.Nd5+ Kd7 46.Nb4 Kc7 47.Nc6 Kd7 48.Kd5 Ke8 49.Kd6 Kf8 50.Ne7 Ke8 . The result remains unclear.
Well, I see. White can win, but the line in my pgn file is a bit slower, and it's not so tight as I thought.
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

Hobacle wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 4:20 pm I have this one new
[pgn][Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date ""]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "5Nbn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/6P1/4k2K w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1. Kg1 Ke2 2. Nd7 Ke1 3. Nc5 Ke2 4. Nb3 Ke1 5. Nd4 Kd1 6. Kf1 Kd2 7. Nb5 Kd1 8.
Nd6 Kd2 9. Kf2 Kd3 10. Ne4 Kc2 11. Ke2 Kc1 12. Nc3 Kc2 13. Nb5 Kb3 14. Kd2 Kb4
15. Nc3 Kc4 16. Nd1 Kb4 17. Nb2 Kb3 18. Nd3 Kc4 19. Nc1 Kd4 20. Nb3+ Kc4 21.
Kc2 Kb4 22. Nd2 Ka4 23. Kc3 Ka3 24. Nb3 Ka4 25. Nc1 Ka3 26. Kc2 Ka4 27. Na2 Ka3
28. Nc3 Kb4 29. Nb1 Kc4 30. Na3+ Kb4 31. Kb2 Ka4 32. Nc2 Kb5 33. Kb3 Kc5 34.
Kc3 Kb5 35. Kd4 Ka5 36. Kc5 Ka4 37. Kc4 Ka5 38. Nd4 Ka6 39. Kc5 Ka5 40. Nb5 Ka4
41. Kc4 Ka5 42. Nc3 Kb6 43. Kd5 Ka6 44. Kc6 Ka5 45. Kc5 Ka6 46. Nd5 Ka5 47. Ne7
Ka4 48. Kc4 Ka3 49. Kc3 Ka2 50. Nxg8 Kb1 51. Kd2 Kb2 52. Ne7 Kb3 53. Nd5 Kc4
54. Nc3 Kb4 55. Nd1 Kc4 56. Nb2+ Kd4 57. Nd3 Kc4 58. Nc1 Kd4 59. Nb3+ Kc4 60.
Kc2 Kb4 61. Nd2 Ka4 62. Kc3 Ka3 63. Nb3 Ka4 64. Nc1 Ka3 65. Kc2 Ka4 66. Na2 Ka3
67. Nc3 Kb4 68. Nb1 Kc4 69. Na3+ Kb4 70. Kb2 Ka4 71. Nc2 Kb5 72. Kb3 Kc5 73.
Kc3 Kb5 74. Kd4 Ka5 75. Kc5 Ka4 76. Kc4 Ka5 77. Nd4 Ka6 78. Kc5 Ka5 79. Nb5 Ka4
80. Kc4 Ka5 81. Nc3 Kb6 82. Kd5 Ka6 83. Kc6 Ka5 84. Kc5 Ka6 85. Nd5 Ka5 86. Nb6
Ka6 87. Nc4 Kb7 88. Kd6 Ka6 89. Kc6 Ka7 90. Nd6 Ka6 91. Nb7 Ka7 92. Nc5 Kb8 93.
Kd7 Ka7 94. Ke7 Kb6 95. Ne4 Kb5 96. Kf8 Kc4 97. Kg8 Kd3 98. Kxh7 Ke2 99. Kxh8
Kf1 100. Nd6 Kxg2 101. Nxf7 Kxf3 102. fxg6 1-0

[/pgn]
My fault. I forgot 1...Kd2 draws. I'm repairing it.

But I also need to know the result of the following line, whether white wins or draws by the 50-move rule. The given moves are accurate:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4
[/pgn]
peter
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Can white win?

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 8:02 am But I also need to know the result of the following line, whether white wins or draws by the 50-move rule. The given moves are accurate:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4
[/pgn]
If Chest is right with this one line to mate, 50 moves- boundary is crossed:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - -"]

1... Ka3 2. Kc3 Ka2 3. Ne7 Kb1 4. Kd2 Kb2 5. Nc8 Ka2 6. Kc2
Ka3 7. Kc3 Ka2 8. Nb6 Kb1 9. Na4 Ka1 10. Kd3 Kb1 11. Kd2
Ka1 12. Kc1 Ka2 13. Kc2 Ka1 14. Nc5 Ka2 15. Nb3 Ka3 16. Nc1
Ka4 17. Na2 Ka3 18. Nc3 Kb4 19. Nb1 Kc4 20. Na3+ Kb4
21. Kb2 Ka4 22. Nc2 Kb5 23. Kb3 Kc5 24. Kc3 Kb5 25. Kd4 Ka5
26. Kc5 Ka4 27. Kc4 Ka5 28. Na3 Ka6 29. Nb5 Kb6 30. Nc3 Kc6
31. Nd5 Kd6 32. Nb4 Ke5 33. Kc3 Kd6 34. Kd4 Kc7 35. Kc5 Kb7
36. Nd5 Ka6 37. Kb4 Ka7 38. Kb5 Kb7 39. Nc3 Kc7 40. Ne4 Kb7
41. Nd6+ Kc7 42. Kc5 Kd7 43. Nb5 Kc8 44. Kb6 Kd8 45. Kc6
Kc8 46. Nc7 Kd8 47. Na6 Kc8 48. Kb6 Kd8 49. Kb5 Kd7 50. Kc5
Kd8 51. Kd6 Kc8 52. Kc6 Kd8 53. Nb8 Kc8 54. Nd7 Kd8 55. Nb6
Ke8 56. Nc8 Kd8 57. Nd6 Ke7 58. Kc7 Kf8 59. Kd8 Kg8 60. Nc8
Kf8 61. Nb6 Kg8 62. g3 Kf8 63. Nd7+ Kg8 64. Ke8 fxg3
65. Nb8 g2 66. Nc6 g1=Q 67. Ne7# *
[/pgn]
Peter.
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 9:39 am
Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 8:02 am But I also need to know the result of the following line, whether white wins or draws by the 50-move rule. The given moves are accurate:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4
[/pgn]
If Chest is right with this one line to mate, 50 moves- boundary is crossed:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - -"]

1... Ka3 2. Kc3 Ka2 3. Ne7 Kb1 4. Kd2 Kb2 5. Nc8 Ka2 6. Kc2
Ka3 7. Kc3 Ka2 8. Nb6 Kb1 9. Na4 Ka1 10. Kd3 Kb1 11. Kd2
Ka1 12. Kc1 Ka2 13. Kc2 Ka1 14. Nc5 Ka2 15. Nb3 Ka3 16. Nc1
Ka4 17. Na2 Ka3 18. Nc3 Kb4 19. Nb1 Kc4 20. Na3+ Kb4
21. Kb2 Ka4 22. Nc2 Kb5 23. Kb3 Kc5 24. Kc3 Kb5 25. Kd4 Ka5
26. Kc5 Ka4 27. Kc4 Ka5 28. Na3 Ka6 29. Nb5 Kb6 30. Nc3 Kc6
31. Nd5 Kd6 32. Nb4 Ke5 33. Kc3 Kd6 34. Kd4 Kc7 35. Kc5 Kb7
36. Nd5 Ka6 37. Kb4 Ka7 38. Kb5 Kb7 39. Nc3 Kc7 40. Ne4 Kb7
41. Nd6+ Kc7 42. Kc5 Kd7 43. Nb5 Kc8 44. Kb6 Kd8 45. Kc6
Kc8 46. Nc7 Kd8 47. Na6 Kc8 48. Kb6 Kd8 49. Kb5 Kd7 50. Kc5
Kd8 51. Kd6 Kc8 52. Kc6 Kd8 53. Nb8 Kc8 54. Nd7 Kd8 55. Nb6
Ke8 56. Nc8 Kd8 57. Nd6 Ke7 58. Kc7 Kf8 59. Kd8 Kg8 60. Nc8
Kf8 61. Nb6 Kg8 62. g3 Kf8 63. Nd7+ Kg8 64. Ke8 fxg3
65. Nb8 g2 66. Nc6 g1=Q 67. Ne7# *
[/pgn]
It's not a mate. Here's a possible line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4 61. Na2 Ka3 62. Nc3 Kb4 63. Nb1 Kc4 64. Na3+
Kb4 65. Kb2 Ka4 66. Nc2 Kb5 67. Kb3 Kc5 68. Kc3 Kb5 69. Kd4 Ka5 70. Kc5 Ka4 71.
Kc4 Ka5 72. Nd4 Ka6 73. Kc5 Ka5 74. Nb5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76. Nc3 Ka6 77. Kd5 Kb6
78. Kd6 Ka6 79. Kc6 Ka5 80. Kc5 Ka6 81. Nd5 Ka5 82. Nb6 Ka6 83. Nc4 Ka7 84. Kd6
Kb7 85. Kd7 Ka6 86. Kc6 Ka7 87. Na5 Ka6 88. Nb7 Ka7 89. Nc5 Kb8 90. Kd7 Ka7 91.
Ke7 Kb6 92. Ne4 Kb5 93. Kf8 Kc4 94. Kg8 Kd3 95. Kxh7
[/pgn]
peter
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Can white win?

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:07 am It's not a mate. Here's a possible line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4 61. Na2 Ka3 62. Nc3 Kb4 63. Nb1 Kc4 64. Na3+
Kb4 65. Kb2 Ka4 66. Nc2 Kb5 67. Kb3 Kc5 68. Kc3 Kb5 69. Kd4 Ka5 70. Kc5 Ka4 71.
Kc4 Ka5 72. Nd4 Ka6 73. Kc5 Ka5 74. Nb5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76. Nc3 Ka6 77. Kd5 Kb6
78. Kd6 Ka6 79. Kc6 Ka5 80. Kc5 Ka6 81. Nd5 Ka5 82. Nb6 Ka6 83. Nc4 Ka7 84. Kd6
Kb7 85. Kd7 Ka6 86. Kc6 Ka7 87. Na5 Ka6 88. Nb7 Ka7 89. Nc5 Kb8 90. Kd7 Ka7 91.
Ke7 Kb6 92. Ne4 Kb5 93. Kf8 Kc4 94. Kg8 Kd3 95. Kxh7
[/pgn]
Well, I don't know how to ask Chest for lines avoiding 50 moves- boundary, if shortest ones to mate are crossing it, Chest knows so yet anyhow, even giving warning. Something that's a little weird for your "longer than 50 moves to mate by avoiding the game playing rule"- studies is the point, that 50 moves- boundary doesn't count for studies anyhow. Going your lines forward- backward with a game playing engine (or Huntsman) giving 0.00 if 50 moves come into search- horizon before mate does, don't give best DTM then and is too much interactive work for me, obviously that's so for you too
:)
Peter.
peter
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Can white win?

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:07 am It's not a mate. Here's a possible line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4 61. Na2 Ka3 62. Nc3 Kb4 63. Nb1 Kc4 64. Na3+
Kb4 65. Kb2 Ka4 66. Nc2 Kb5 67. Kb3 Kc5 68. Kc3 Kb5 69. Kd4 Ka5 70. Kc5 Ka4 71.
Kc4 Ka5 72. Nd4 Ka6 73. Kc5 Ka5 74. Nb5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76. Nc3 Ka6 77. Kd5 Kb6
78. Kd6 Ka6 79. Kc6 Ka5 80. Kc5 Ka6 81. Nd5 Ka5 82. Nb6 Ka6 83. Nc4 Ka7 84. Kd6
Kb7 85. Kd7 Ka6 86. Kc6 Ka7 87. Na5 Ka6 88. Nb7 Ka7 89. Nc5 Kb8 90. Kd7 Ka7 91.
Ke7 Kb6 92. Ne4 Kb5 93. Kf8 Kc4 94. Kg8 Kd3 95. Kxh7
[/pgn]
And how can you be sure, if you don't have any DTM in shortest possible way, that it's not more than 50 moves again after your first 95?
At least Chest doesn't get any mate in 100 with the old params (that probably aren't the best ones anymore after taking figures off of board) started at position after your 95.Kxh7.
With an old Cfish of mine having an UCI- option to change 50 moves- boundary up to 100 instead, Backward of your line keeps winning eval in hash only 15 moves long, at 81 it comes up with ...Kb7 instead of ...Ka5 and 0.00 prefering a threefold to any longer trials, which within search- horizon would mean, no more possibel win to score alternatively. So how to be sure about next 50 moves without next counter-reset or DTM within?
Peter.
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 1:13 pm
Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:07 am It's not a mate. Here's a possible line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4 61. Na2 Ka3 62. Nc3 Kb4 63. Nb1 Kc4 64. Na3+
Kb4 65. Kb2 Ka4 66. Nc2 Kb5 67. Kb3 Kc5 68. Kc3 Kb5 69. Kd4 Ka5 70. Kc5 Ka4 71.
Kc4 Ka5 72. Nd4 Ka6 73. Kc5 Ka5 74. Nb5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76. Nc3 Ka6 77. Kd5 Kb6
78. Kd6 Ka6 79. Kc6 Ka5 80. Kc5 Ka6 81. Nd5 Ka5 82. Nb6 Ka6 83. Nc4 Ka7 84. Kd6
Kb7 85. Kd7 Ka6 86. Kc6 Ka7 87. Na5 Ka6 88. Nb7 Ka7 89. Nc5 Kb8 90. Kd7 Ka7 91.
Ke7 Kb6 92. Ne4 Kb5 93. Kf8 Kc4 94. Kg8 Kd3 95. Kxh7
[/pgn]
And how can you be sure, if you don't have any DTM in shortest possible way, that it's not more than 50 moves again after your first 95?
At least Chest doesn't get any mate in 100 with the old params (that probably aren't the best ones anymore after taking figures off of board) started at position after your 95.Kxh7.
With an old Cfish of mine having an UCI- option to change 50 moves- boundary up to 100 instead, Backward of your line keeps winning eval in hash only 15 moves long, at 81 it comes up with ...Kb7 instead of ...Ka5 and 0.00 prefering a threefold to any longer trials, which within search- horizon would mean, no more possibel win to score alternatively. So how to be sure about next 50 moves without next counter-reset or DTM within?
It draws, but draws by 81...Ka7! .
[pgn][Result "1/2-1/2"]
[FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4 61. Na2 Ka3 62. Nc3 Kb4 63. Nb1 Kc4 64. Na3+
Kb4 65. Kb2 Ka4 66. Nc2 Kb5 67. Kb3 Kc5 68. Kc3 Kb5 69. Kd4 Ka5 70. Kc5 Ka4 71.
Kc4 Ka5 72. Nd4 Ka6 73. Kc5 Ka5 74. Nb5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76. Nc3 Ka6 77. Kd5
(77. Na4 Ka5 78. Nc5 Kb6 79. Nb3 Kc6 80. Na5+ Kb6 81. Kb4 Ka6 82. Nc4 Kb7 83.
Kc5 {a}) 77... Kb6 78. Kd6 Ka6 79. Kc6 Ka5 80. Kc5 Ka6 81. Nd5 Ka7 (81... Ka5
82. Nb6 Ka6 83. Nc4 Ka7 84. Kd6 Kb7 85. Kd7 Ka6 86. Kc6 Ka7 87. Nd6 Ka6 88. Nb7
Ka7 89. Nc5 Kb8 90. Kd7 Ka7 91. Ke7 {c} 91... Kb6 92. Ne4 Kb5 93. Kf8 Kc4 94.
Kg8 Kd3 95. Kxh7) (81... Kb7 82. Kb5 Kb8 (82... Kc8 83. Kc6 Kb8 84. Nb4 Ka7 85.
Kc7 Ka8 86. Nd3 Ka7 87. Nc5 {b}) (82... Ka7 83. Nb4 Kb7 (83... Kb8 84. Kc6 Ka7
85. Kc7 Ka8 86. Nd3 Ka7 87. Nc5 {b}) 84. Na6 Ka7 85. Nc5 Kb8 86. Kc6 Ka7 87.
Kc7 {b}) 83. Kb6 Kc8 84. Kc6 Kb8 85. Nb4 Ka7 86. Kc7 Ka8 87. Nd3 Ka7 88. Nc5
{b} 88... Ka8 89. Kd7 Ka7 90. Ke7 Kb6 91. Ne4 Kb5 92. Kf8 Kc4 93. Kg8 Kd3 94.
Kxh7) 82. Nb6 Kb7 83. Nc4 {a} 83... Kc7 84. Nd6 Kd7 85. Nb5 Kc8 (85... Ke8 86.
Kd6 Kf8 87. Na7 Kg8 88. Nc6 Kf8 89. Kd7 Kg8 90. Nb8 Kf8 91. Kd8 Kg8 92. g3)
(85... Kd8 86. Kd6 Ke8 (86... Kc8 87. Ke7 Kb7 88. Kf8 Kc6 89. Nc3 Kc5 90. Ne4+
Kd4 91. Kg8 Ke3 92. Kxh7) 87. Kc7 Ke7 88. Nd4 Ke8 89. Nc6 Kf8 90. Kd7 Kg8 91.
Nb8 Kf8 92. Kd8 Kg8 93. g3) 86. Kc6 Kb8 (86... Kd8 87. Na7 Ke8 88. Kc7 Ke7 89.
Nc6+ Ke8 90. Kd6 Kf8 91. Kd7 Kg8 92. Nb8 Kf8 93. Kd8 Kg8 94. g3) 87. Nd6 Ka7
88. Kb5 Ka8 (88... Kb8 89. Kb6 Ka8 90. Kc7 Ka7 91. Kd7 Kb6 92. Ke7 Kc5 93. Ne4+
Kd4 94. Kf8 Ke3 95. Kg8) 89. Ka6 Kb8 90. Kb6 Ka8 91. Kc7 Ka7 92. Kd7 Kb6 93.
Ke7 Kc5 94. Ne4+ Kd4 95. Kf8 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
User avatar
Ajedrecista
Posts: 2162
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:04 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain.

Re: Can white win?

Post by Ajedrecista »

Hello:
Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:07 am
peter wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 9:39 am
Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 8:02 am But I also need to know the result of the following line, whether white wins or draws by the 50-move rule. The given moves are accurate:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4
[/pgn]
If Chest is right with this one line to mate, 50 moves- boundary is crossed:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - -"]

1... Ka3 2. Kc3 Ka2 3. Ne7 Kb1 4. Kd2 Kb2 5. Nc8 Ka2 6. Kc2
Ka3 7. Kc3 Ka2 8. Nb6 Kb1 9. Na4 Ka1 10. Kd3 Kb1 11. Kd2
Ka1 12. Kc1 Ka2 13. Kc2 Ka1 14. Nc5 Ka2 15. Nb3 Ka3 16. Nc1
Ka4 17. Na2 Ka3 18. Nc3 Kb4 19. Nb1 Kc4 20. Na3+ Kb4
21. Kb2 Ka4 22. Nc2 Kb5 23. Kb3 Kc5 24. Kc3 Kb5 25. Kd4 Ka5
26. Kc5 Ka4 27. Kc4 Ka5 28. Na3 Ka6 29. Nb5 Kb6 30. Nc3 Kc6
31. Nd5 Kd6 32. Nb4 Ke5 33. Kc3 Kd6 34. Kd4 Kc7 35. Kc5 Kb7
36. Nd5 Ka6 37. Kb4 Ka7 38. Kb5 Kb7 39. Nc3 Kc7 40. Ne4 Kb7
41. Nd6+ Kc7 42. Kc5 Kd7 43. Nb5 Kc8 44. Kb6 Kd8 45. Kc6
Kc8 46. Nc7 Kd8 47. Na6 Kc8 48. Kb6 Kd8 49. Kb5 Kd7 50. Kc5
Kd8 51. Kd6 Kc8 52. Kc6 Kd8 53. Nb8 Kc8 54. Nd7 Kd8 55. Nb6
Ke8 56. Nc8 Kd8 57. Nd6 Ke7 58. Kc7 Kf8 59. Kd8 Kg8 60. Nc8
Kf8 61. Nb6 Kg8 62. g3 Kf8 63. Nd7+ Kg8 64. Ke8 fxg3
65. Nb8 g2 66. Nc6 g1=Q 67. Ne7# *
[/pgn]
It's not a mate. Here's a possible line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4 61. Na2 Ka3 62. Nc3 Kb4 63. Nb1 Kc4 64. Na3+
Kb4 65. Kb2 Ka4 66. Nc2 Kb5 67. Kb3 Kc5 68. Kc3 Kb5 69. Kd4 Ka5 70. Kc5 Ka4 71.
Kc4 Ka5 72. Nd4 Ka6 73. Kc5 Ka5 74. Nb5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76. Nc3 Ka6 77. Kd5 Kb6
78. Kd6 Ka6 79. Kc6 Ka5 80. Kc5 Ka6 81. Nd5 Ka5 82. Nb6 Ka6 83. Nc4 Ka7 84. Kd6
Kb7 85. Kd7 Ka6 86. Kc6 Ka7 87. Na5 Ka6 88. Nb7 Ka7 89. Nc5 Kb8 90. Kd7 Ka7 91.
Ke7 Kb6 92. Ne4 Kb5 93. Kf8 Kc4 94. Kg8 Kd3 95. Kxh7
[/pgn]
The second and third PGN of the quote match until 27.- ..., Ka5 and 71.- ..., Ka5, then the former goes for 28.- Na3 while the other goes for 72.- Nd4. I have tried Chest 5.2 with Ignacio's parameters from the last position where those PGN match and it finds a checkmate in 40 moves starting with Na3 (Hobacle's PGN) or Nd4. Then, trying to find where the last PGN deviates from Chest lines, it deviates early, only matching Nd4, Ka6; because after that, the shorter mating moves are Ne2 and Nb5, but not Kc5... always analysing with Ignacio's parameters. The key position should be this one:

[d]7n/5ppr/k4prb/5Pp1/2KN1pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

Where Hobacle claims a not-checkmate and Chest does with specific parameters. I played Kc5 and let Chest analyzing with the same parameters again:

Code: Select all

FEN: 7n/5ppr/k4prb/2K2Pp1/3N1pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 1 

ChestUCI:
FEN: 7n/5ppr/k4prb/2K2Pp1/3N1pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - -   (7+10)
Stellungs-Analyse:  S:1/3
Suche nach Spezial-Matt [C10/R0/K8/P2/X7] in -126 ...  (Hash=64MB)
Suche abgeschlossen ...  (Zeit=576.64s)
Matt in -40 gefunden !  (4 Lösungen in 09:36)
 28/40	11:46	 666.141.040	1.155.203	-M28	Ka6a7 Kc5c6 Ka7a8 Nd4b5 Ka8b8 Kc6b6 Kb8a8 Nb5c7+ Ka8b8 Nc7a6+ Kb8a8 Kb6c6 Ka8a7 Na6c7 Ka7b8 Kc6b6 Kb8c8 Nc7a6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d6 Kd8c8 Kd6c6 Kc8d8 Na6b8 Kd8c8 Nb8d7 Kc8d8 Nd7b6 Kd8e8 Nb6c8 Ke8d8 Nc8d6 Kd8e7 Kc6c7 Ke7f8 Kc7d8 Kf8g8 Nd6c8 Kg8f8 Nc8b6 Kf8g8 g2g3 Kg8f8 Nb6d7+ Kf8g8 Kd8e8 f4xg3 Nd7b8 g3g2 Nb8c6 g2g1Q Nc6e7+
 31/40	11:46	 666.141.040	1.155.203	-M31	Ka6b7 Nd4b3 Kb7a7 Kc5b5 Ka7b7 Nb3a5+ Kb7c7 Na5c4 Kc7d7 Kb5c5 Kd7c7 Nc4d6 Kc7d7 Nd6b5 Kd7c8 Kc5b6 Kc8d8 Kb6c6 Kd8c8 Nb5c7 Kc8d8 Nc7a6 Kd8c8 Kc6b6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d6 Kd8c8 Kd6c6 Kc8d8 Na6b8 Kd8c8 Nb8d7 Kc8d8 Nd7b6 Kd8e8 Nb6c8 Ke8d8 Nc8d6 Kd8e7 Kc6c7 Ke7f8 Kc7d8 Kf8g8 Nd6c8 Kg8f8 Nc8b6 Kf8g8 g2g3 Kg8f8 Nb6d7+ Kf8g8 Kd8e8 f4xg3 Nd7b8 g3g2 Nb8c6 g2g1Q Nc6e7+
 40/40	11:46	 666.141.040	1.155.203	-M40	Ka6a5 Kc5c4 Ka5a6 Nd4b5 Ka6b6 Nb5c3 Kb6c6 Nc3d5 Kc6d6 Nd5b4 Kd6e5 Kc4c3 Ke5d6 Kc3d4 Kd6c7 Kd4c5 Kc7b7 Nb4d5 Kb7a6 Kc5b4 Ka6a7 Kb4b5 Ka7b7 Nd5c3 Kb7c7 Nc3e4 Kc7b7 Ne4d6+ Kb7c7 Kb5c5 Kc7d7 Nd6b5 Kd7c8 Kc5b6 Kc8d8 Kb6c6 Kd8c8 Nb5c7 Kc8d8 Nc7a6 Kd8c8 Kc6b6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d6 Kd8c8 Kd6c6 Kc8d8 Na6b8 Kd8c8 Nb8d7 Kc8d8 Nd7b6 Kd8e8 Nb6c8 Ke8d8 Nc8d6 Kd8e7 Kc6c7 Ke7f8 Kc7d8 Kf8g8 Nd6c8 Kg8f8 Nc8b6 Kf8g8 g2g3 Kg8f8 Nb6d7+ Kf8g8 Kd8e8 f4xg3 Nd7b8 g3g2 Nb8c6 g2g1Q Nc6e7+
 40/40	11:46	 666.141.040	1.155.203	-M40	Ka6a5 Nd4b5 Ka5a6 Nb5c3 Ka6a5 Kc5c4 Ka5b6 Nc3e4 Kb6a6 Kc4c5 Ka6a5 Ne4c3 Ka5a6 Nc3a4 Ka6a5 Na4b6 Ka5a6 Nb6c4 Ka6b7 Kc5d6 Kb7a7 Kd6c7 Ka7a6 Kc7c6 Ka6a7 Nc4a5 Ka7a8 Na5b7 Ka8b8 Kc6b6 Kb8c8 Nb7c5 Kc8b8 Nc5a6+ Kb8a8 Kb6c6 Ka8a7 Na6c7 Ka7b8 Kc6b6 Kb8c8 Nc7a6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d6 Kd8c8 Kd6c6 Kc8d8 Na6b8 Kd8c8 Nb8d7 Kc8d8 Nd7b6 Kd8e8 Nb6c8 Ke8d8 Nc8d6 Kd8e7 Kc6c7 Ke7f8 Kc7d8 Kf8g8 Nd6c8 Kg8f8 Nc8b6 Kf8g8 g2g3 Kg8f8 Nb6d7+ Kf8g8 Kd8e8 f4xg3 Nd7b8 g3g2 Nb8c6 g2g1Q Nc6e7+
So Kc5 shall be understood as a suboptimal move that does not miss the checkmate, only delays it. One can track down the white moves of the PGN to check if white misses the win or at least the checkmate with the black king trapped. Chest sees checkmates until 90.- ..., Ka7 of the last PGN, then 91.- Ke7 blows the checkmate or at least delays it a lot.

------------

Just to be fair, Hobacle's problems and ideas are amazing and mind blowing IMHO. Some of them may not work at the first try, but hey, we have fun analysing and proposing lines! Thank you.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

Ajedrecista wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 2:21 pm
Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:07 am
peter wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 9:39 am
Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 8:02 am But I also need to know the result of the following line, whether white wins or draws by the 50-move rule. The given moves are accurate:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4
[/pgn]
If Chest is right with this one line to mate, 50 moves- boundary is crossed:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - -"]

1... Ka3 2. Kc3 Ka2 3. Ne7 Kb1 4. Kd2 Kb2 5. Nc8 Ka2 6. Kc2
Ka3 7. Kc3 Ka2 8. Nb6 Kb1 9. Na4 Ka1 10. Kd3 Kb1 11. Kd2
Ka1 12. Kc1 Ka2 13. Kc2 Ka1 14. Nc5 Ka2 15. Nb3 Ka3 16. Nc1
Ka4 17. Na2 Ka3 18. Nc3 Kb4 19. Nb1 Kc4 20. Na3+ Kb4
21. Kb2 Ka4 22. Nc2 Kb5 23. Kb3 Kc5 24. Kc3 Kb5 25. Kd4 Ka5
26. Kc5 Ka4 27. Kc4 Ka5 28. Na3 Ka6 29. Nb5 Kb6 30. Nc3 Kc6
31. Nd5 Kd6 32. Nb4 Ke5 33. Kc3 Kd6 34. Kd4 Kc7 35. Kc5 Kb7
36. Nd5 Ka6 37. Kb4 Ka7 38. Kb5 Kb7 39. Nc3 Kc7 40. Ne4 Kb7
41. Nd6+ Kc7 42. Kc5 Kd7 43. Nb5 Kc8 44. Kb6 Kd8 45. Kc6
Kc8 46. Nc7 Kd8 47. Na6 Kc8 48. Kb6 Kd8 49. Kb5 Kd7 50. Kc5
Kd8 51. Kd6 Kc8 52. Kc6 Kd8 53. Nb8 Kc8 54. Nd7 Kd8 55. Nb6
Ke8 56. Nc8 Kd8 57. Nd6 Ke7 58. Kc7 Kf8 59. Kd8 Kg8 60. Nc8
Kf8 61. Nb6 Kg8 62. g3 Kf8 63. Nd7+ Kg8 64. Ke8 fxg3
65. Nb8 g2 66. Nc6 g1=Q 67. Ne7# *
[/pgn]
It's not a mate. Here's a possible line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4 61. Na2 Ka3 62. Nc3 Kb4 63. Nb1 Kc4 64. Na3+
Kb4 65. Kb2 Ka4 66. Nc2 Kb5 67. Kb3 Kc5 68. Kc3 Kb5 69. Kd4 Ka5 70. Kc5 Ka4 71.
Kc4 Ka5 72. Nd4 Ka6 73. Kc5 Ka5 74. Nb5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76. Nc3 Ka6 77. Kd5 Kb6
78. Kd6 Ka6 79. Kc6 Ka5 80. Kc5 Ka6 81. Nd5 Ka5 82. Nb6 Ka6 83. Nc4 Ka7 84. Kd6
Kb7 85. Kd7 Ka6 86. Kc6 Ka7 87. Na5 Ka6 88. Nb7 Ka7 89. Nc5 Kb8 90. Kd7 Ka7 91.
Ke7 Kb6 92. Ne4 Kb5 93. Kf8 Kc4 94. Kg8 Kd3 95. Kxh7
[/pgn]
The second and third PGN of the quote match until 27.- ..., Ka5 and 71.- ..., Ka5, then the former goes for 28.- Na3 while the other goes for 72.- Nd4. I have tried Chest 5.2 with Ignacio's parameters from the last position where those PGN match and it finds a checkmate in 40 moves starting with Na3 (Hobacle's PGN) or Nd4. Then, trying to find where the last PGN deviates from Chest lines, it deviates early, only matching Nd4, Ka6; because after that, the shorter mating moves are Ne2 and Nb5, but not Kc5... always analysing with Ignacio's parameters. The key position should be this one:

[d]7n/5ppr/k4prb/5Pp1/2KN1pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

Where Hobacle claims a not-checkmate and Chest does with specific parameters. I played Kc5 and let Chest analyzing with the same parameters again:

Code: Select all

FEN: 7n/5ppr/k4prb/2K2Pp1/3N1pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 1 

ChestUCI:
FEN: 7n/5ppr/k4prb/2K2Pp1/3N1pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - -   (7+10)
Stellungs-Analyse:  S:1/3
Suche nach Spezial-Matt [C10/R0/K8/P2/X7] in -126 ...  (Hash=64MB)
Suche abgeschlossen ...  (Zeit=576.64s)
Matt in -40 gefunden !  (4 Lösungen in 09:36)
 28/40	11:46	 666.141.040	1.155.203	-M28	Ka6a7 Kc5c6 Ka7a8 Nd4b5 Ka8b8 Kc6b6 Kb8a8 Nb5c7+ Ka8b8 Nc7a6+ Kb8a8 Kb6c6 Ka8a7 Na6c7 Ka7b8 Kc6b6 Kb8c8 Nc7a6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d6 Kd8c8 Kd6c6 Kc8d8 Na6b8 Kd8c8 Nb8d7 Kc8d8 Nd7b6 Kd8e8 Nb6c8 Ke8d8 Nc8d6 Kd8e7 Kc6c7 Ke7f8 Kc7d8 Kf8g8 Nd6c8 Kg8f8 Nc8b6 Kf8g8 g2g3 Kg8f8 Nb6d7+ Kf8g8 Kd8e8 f4xg3 Nd7b8 g3g2 Nb8c6 g2g1Q Nc6e7+
 31/40	11:46	 666.141.040	1.155.203	-M31	Ka6b7 Nd4b3 Kb7a7 Kc5b5 Ka7b7 Nb3a5+ Kb7c7 Na5c4 Kc7d7 Kb5c5 Kd7c7 Nc4d6 Kc7d7 Nd6b5 Kd7c8 Kc5b6 Kc8d8 Kb6c6 Kd8c8 Nb5c7 Kc8d8 Nc7a6 Kd8c8 Kc6b6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d6 Kd8c8 Kd6c6 Kc8d8 Na6b8 Kd8c8 Nb8d7 Kc8d8 Nd7b6 Kd8e8 Nb6c8 Ke8d8 Nc8d6 Kd8e7 Kc6c7 Ke7f8 Kc7d8 Kf8g8 Nd6c8 Kg8f8 Nc8b6 Kf8g8 g2g3 Kg8f8 Nb6d7+ Kf8g8 Kd8e8 f4xg3 Nd7b8 g3g2 Nb8c6 g2g1Q Nc6e7+
 40/40	11:46	 666.141.040	1.155.203	-M40	Ka6a5 Kc5c4 Ka5a6 Nd4b5 Ka6b6 Nb5c3 Kb6c6 Nc3d5 Kc6d6 Nd5b4 Kd6e5 Kc4c3 Ke5d6 Kc3d4 Kd6c7 Kd4c5 Kc7b7 Nb4d5 Kb7a6 Kc5b4 Ka6a7 Kb4b5 Ka7b7 Nd5c3 Kb7c7 Nc3e4 Kc7b7 Ne4d6+ Kb7c7 Kb5c5 Kc7d7 Nd6b5 Kd7c8 Kc5b6 Kc8d8 Kb6c6 Kd8c8 Nb5c7 Kc8d8 Nc7a6 Kd8c8 Kc6b6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d6 Kd8c8 Kd6c6 Kc8d8 Na6b8 Kd8c8 Nb8d7 Kc8d8 Nd7b6 Kd8e8 Nb6c8 Ke8d8 Nc8d6 Kd8e7 Kc6c7 Ke7f8 Kc7d8 Kf8g8 Nd6c8 Kg8f8 Nc8b6 Kf8g8 g2g3 Kg8f8 Nb6d7+ Kf8g8 Kd8e8 f4xg3 Nd7b8 g3g2 Nb8c6 g2g1Q Nc6e7+
 40/40	11:46	 666.141.040	1.155.203	-M40	Ka6a5 Nd4b5 Ka5a6 Nb5c3 Ka6a5 Kc5c4 Ka5b6 Nc3e4 Kb6a6 Kc4c5 Ka6a5 Ne4c3 Ka5a6 Nc3a4 Ka6a5 Na4b6 Ka5a6 Nb6c4 Ka6b7 Kc5d6 Kb7a7 Kd6c7 Ka7a6 Kc7c6 Ka6a7 Nc4a5 Ka7a8 Na5b7 Ka8b8 Kc6b6 Kb8c8 Nb7c5 Kc8b8 Nc5a6+ Kb8a8 Kb6c6 Ka8a7 Na6c7 Ka7b8 Kc6b6 Kb8c8 Nc7a6 Kc8d8 Kb6b5 Kd8d7 Kb5c5 Kd7d8 Kc5d6 Kd8c8 Kd6c6 Kc8d8 Na6b8 Kd8c8 Nb8d7 Kc8d8 Nd7b6 Kd8e8 Nb6c8 Ke8d8 Nc8d6 Kd8e7 Kc6c7 Ke7f8 Kc7d8 Kf8g8 Nd6c8 Kg8f8 Nc8b6 Kf8g8 g2g3 Kg8f8 Nb6d7+ Kf8g8 Kd8e8 f4xg3 Nd7b8 g3g2 Nb8c6 g2g1Q Nc6e7+
So Kc5 shall be understood as a suboptimal move that does not miss the checkmate, only delays it. One can track down the white moves of the PGN to check if white misses the win or at least the checkmate with the black king trapped. Chest sees checkmates until 90.- ..., Ka7 of the last PGN, then 91.- Ke7 blows the checkmate or at least delays it a lot.
White mates here, of course, if ignoring the 50-move rule. Chest ignores it, but we must consider it. So white has to use a special method to avoid drawing by it. The only method is Kxh7 . That's the reason why you can see some moves that delay the checkmate according to Chest in white's play.
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

Hobacle wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 8:02 am
Hobacle wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 4:20 pm I have this one new
[pgn][Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date ""]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "5Nbn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/6P1/4k2K w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1. Kg1 Ke2 2. Nd7 Ke1 3. Nc5 Ke2 4. Nb3 Ke1 5. Nd4 Kd1 6. Kf1 Kd2 7. Nb5 Kd1 8.
Nd6 Kd2 9. Kf2 Kd3 10. Ne4 Kc2 11. Ke2 Kc1 12. Nc3 Kc2 13. Nb5 Kb3 14. Kd2 Kb4
15. Nc3 Kc4 16. Nd1 Kb4 17. Nb2 Kb3 18. Nd3 Kc4 19. Nc1 Kd4 20. Nb3+ Kc4 21.
Kc2 Kb4 22. Nd2 Ka4 23. Kc3 Ka3 24. Nb3 Ka4 25. Nc1 Ka3 26. Kc2 Ka4 27. Na2 Ka3
28. Nc3 Kb4 29. Nb1 Kc4 30. Na3+ Kb4 31. Kb2 Ka4 32. Nc2 Kb5 33. Kb3 Kc5 34.
Kc3 Kb5 35. Kd4 Ka5 36. Kc5 Ka4 37. Kc4 Ka5 38. Nd4 Ka6 39. Kc5 Ka5 40. Nb5 Ka4
41. Kc4 Ka5 42. Nc3 Kb6 43. Kd5 Ka6 44. Kc6 Ka5 45. Kc5 Ka6 46. Nd5 Ka5 47. Ne7
Ka4 48. Kc4 Ka3 49. Kc3 Ka2 50. Nxg8 Kb1 51. Kd2 Kb2 52. Ne7 Kb3 53. Nd5 Kc4
54. Nc3 Kb4 55. Nd1 Kc4 56. Nb2+ Kd4 57. Nd3 Kc4 58. Nc1 Kd4 59. Nb3+ Kc4 60.
Kc2 Kb4 61. Nd2 Ka4 62. Kc3 Ka3 63. Nb3 Ka4 64. Nc1 Ka3 65. Kc2 Ka4 66. Na2 Ka3
67. Nc3 Kb4 68. Nb1 Kc4 69. Na3+ Kb4 70. Kb2 Ka4 71. Nc2 Kb5 72. Kb3 Kc5 73.
Kc3 Kb5 74. Kd4 Ka5 75. Kc5 Ka4 76. Kc4 Ka5 77. Nd4 Ka6 78. Kc5 Ka5 79. Nb5 Ka4
80. Kc4 Ka5 81. Nc3 Kb6 82. Kd5 Ka6 83. Kc6 Ka5 84. Kc5 Ka6 85. Nd5 Ka5 86. Nb6
Ka6 87. Nc4 Kb7 88. Kd6 Ka6 89. Kc6 Ka7 90. Nd6 Ka6 91. Nb7 Ka7 92. Nc5 Kb8 93.
Kd7 Ka7 94. Ke7 Kb6 95. Ne4 Kb5 96. Kf8 Kc4 97. Kg8 Kd3 98. Kxh7 Ke2 99. Kxh8
Kf1 100. Nd6 Kxg2 101. Nxf7 Kxf3 102. fxg6 1-0

[/pgn]
My fault. I forgot 1...Kd2 draws. I'm repairing it.

But I also need to know the result of the following line, whether white wins or draws by the 50-move rule. The given moves are accurate:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/k1K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 45"]
[SetUp "1"]

45... Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Ne7 Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Nc8 Ka2 50. Kc2 Ka3 51. Kc3
Ka2 52. Nb6 Kb1 53. Na4 Ka1 54. Kd3 Kb1 55. Kd2 Ka1 56. Kc1 Ka2 57. Kc2 Ka1 58.
Nc5 Ka2 59. Nb3 Ka3 60. Nc1 Ka4
[/pgn]
Now it's done:
[pgn][Result "1-0"]
[FEN "6bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pPB/N4P1P/6P1/5k1K w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1. Be1 Kxe1 2. Kg1 Ke2 3. Nb5 Ke1 4. Nd4 Kd1 5. Kf1 Kd2 6. Nb5 Kd1 7. Nd6 Kd2
8. Kf2 Kd3 9. Ne4 Kc2 10. Ke2 Kc1 11. Nc3 Kc2 12. Nb5 Kb3 13. Kd2 Kb4 14. Nc3
Kc4 15. Nd1 Kb4 16. Nb2 Kb3 17. Nd3 Kc4 18. Nc1 Kd4 19. Nb3+ Kc4 20. Kc2 Kb4
21. Nd2 Ka4 22. Kc3 Ka3 23. Nb3 Ka4 24. Nc1 Ka3 25. Kc2 Ka4 26. Na2 Ka3 27. Nc3
Kb4 28. Nb1 Kc4 29. Na3+ Kb4 30. Kb2 Ka4 31. Nc2 Kb5 32. Kb3 Kc5 33. Kc3 Kb5
34. Kd4 Ka5 35. Kc5 Ka4 36. Kc4 Ka5 37. Nd4 Ka4 (37... Kb6 38. Kb4 Kc7 (38...
Ka6 39. Nc6 Kb6 40. Ne7 Ka6 41. Nxg8 {winning}) 39. Kc5 Kb7 (39... Kd7 40. Nc6
Kc7 41. Ne7 Kb7 42. Nxg8 {winning}) 40. Nc6 Ka6 (40... Kc7 41. Ne7 Kb7 42. Nxg8
{winning}) 41. Kb4 Kb6 42. Ne7 Ka6 43. Nxg8 {winning}) (37... Ka6 38. Nc6 Kb6
39. Ne7 {D}) 38. Nb5 (38. Nc6 Ka3 39. Kc3 Ka4 (39... Ka2 40. Ne7 Kb1 41. Kd2
Kb2 42. Nxg8 {E}) 40. Ne7 Kb5 41. Kd4 Kb4 42. Nxg8 {F} 42... Kb3 43. Kd3 Kb2
44. Ne7 Kc1 45. Ke2 Kc2 46. Nd5 Kb3 47. Kd2 {a} 47... Kc4 {will draw by the
50-move rule}) 38... Ka5 39. Nc3 Ka6 (39... Kb6 40. Kd5 (40. Nd5+ Ka5 41. Ne7
{G}) 40... Ka6 (40... Kc7 41. Kc5 Kd7 (41... Kb7 42. Nd5 Ka6 43. Kb4 Kb7 44.
Ne7 Ka6 45. Nxg8 {winning}) 42. Nd5 Kd8 43. Kc6 Ke8 44. Kd6 Kd8 45. Ne7 Ke8 46.
Nxg8 {winning}) (40... Kb7 41. Kc5 Ka6 (41... Kc7 42. Nd5+ Kd7 43. Nb4 Kc7 44.
Nc6 {C}) 42. Nd5 {B}) (40... Ka7 41. Kc5 Ka6 (41... Kb7 42. Nd5 Ka6 43. Kb4 Kb7
44. Ne7 Ka6 45. Nxg8 {winning}) 42. Nd5 {B}) (40... Ka5 41. Kc5 Ka6 42. Nd5
{B}) 41. Kc6 (41. Kc5 {H}) 41... Ka5 42. Kc5 {A}) 40. Kd5 (40. Nd5 Ka5 41. Ne7
{G} 41... Ka4 42. Nxg8 Ka3 43. Kc3 Ka2 44. Ne7 Kb1 45. Kd2 Kb2 46. Nc8 Ka2 47.
Kc2 Ka3 48. Kc3 Ka2 49. Nb6 Kb1 50. Na4 Ka1 51. Kd3 Kb1 52. Kd2 Ka1 53. Kc1 Ka2
54. Kc2 Ka1 55. Nc5 Ka2 56. Nb3 {b} 56... Ka3 {will draw by the 50-move rule})
(40. Kc5 {H} 40... Ka5 41. Nd5 Ka4 42. Kc4 Ka3 43. Kc3 Ka2 44. Ne7 Kb1 45. Kd2
Kb2 46. Nxg8 {E} 46... Kb3 47. Ne7 Kc4 48. Nc8 Kb4 49. Kd3 Kb5 50. Nd6+ Kb4 51.
Nb7 Kb3 52. Nc5+ Kb4 53. Kd4 Ka3 54. Kc3 Ka2 55. Nd3 Kb1 56. Kd2 Ka1 57. Kc1
Ka2 58. Kc2 Ka1 59. Nc5 Ka2 60. Nb3 {b} 60... Ka3 {will draw by the 50-move
rule}) 40... Kb6 41. Kd6 Ka5 (41... Ka6 42. Ke7) 42. Kc5 {A} 42... Ka6 43. Nd5
{B} 43... Ka5 44. Nb6 (44. Ne7 {I} 44... Ka4 45. Kc4 Ka3 46. Kc3 Ka2 47. Nxg8
Kb1 48. Kd2 Kb2 49. Ne7 Kb3 50. Nd5 {a} 50... Kc4 51. Nc3 Kb4 52. Nd1 Kc4 53.
Nb2+ Kd4 54. Nd3 Kc4 55. Nc1 Kd4 56. Nb3+ Kc4 57. Kc2 Kb4 58. Nd2 Ka4 59. Kc3
Ka3 60. Nb3 Ka2 61. Kc2 {b} 61... Ka3 {will draw by the 50-move rule}) 44...
Ka6 45. Nc4 (45. Nc8 Ka5 46. Ne7 {I}) 45... Kb7 46. Na5+ Kc7 (46... Ka6 47. Nc6
Kb7 48. Ne7 Ka6 49. Kb4 Kb6 50. Nxg8 {winning}) 47. Nc6 {C} 47... Kd7 48. Kd5
Kc7 49. Ne7 Kb6 50. Kc4 {D} 50... Ka5 51. Nxg8 Ka4 52. Ne7 Ka3 53. Kc3 Ka2 54.
Kc2 Ka3 55. Nc6 Ka2 56. Nb4+ Ka1 57. Nd3 Ka2 58. Nc1+ Ka1 59. Kc3 Kb1 60. Nb3
Ka2 61. Kc2 {b} 61... Ka3 62. Nc1 Ka4 63. Na2 Ka3 64. Nc3 Kb4 65. Nb1 Kc4 66.
Na3+ Kb4 67. Kb2 Ka4 68. Nc2 Kb5 69. Kb3 Kc5 70. Kc3 Kb5 71. Kd4 Ka5 72. Kc5
Ka4 73. Kc4 Ka5 74. Nd4 Ka6 75. Kc5 Ka5 76. Nb5 Ka4 77. Kc4 Ka5 78. Nc3 Ka6 79.
Kd5 Kb6 80. Kd6 Ka6 81. Kc6 Ka5 82. Kc5 Ka6 83. Nd5 Ka7 84. Nb6 Kb7 85. Nc4 Kc7
86. Nd6 Kd7 87. Nb5 Kc8 88. Kb6 Kb8 89. Nd6 Ka8 90. Ne4 Kb8 91. Nc5 Kc8 92. Kc6
Kb8 (92... Kd8 93. Kd6 Ke8 94. Nb7 Kf8 95. Kd7 Kg8 96. Nc5 Kf8 97. Na4 Kg8 98.
Nb6 Kf8 99. Kd8 Kg8 100. g3) 93. Kd7 Ka7 94. Ke8 Kb6 95. Ne4 Kb5 96. Kf8 Kc4
97. Kg8 Kd3 98. Kxh7 1-0
[/pgn]