Is it time to make chess tiger free engine

[GS]

CT 2007.1 is still losing on time here under winboard. If I'm the only one then of course the problem is not in your code! The fischer time control works well though.

Good luck with the further development of Chess Tiger,

I had none so far in 50 games, when I had around 1 per 10-15 games
before. It still could have been lucky though so far?
I play only ponder off games here. It would be easy to prove
if it is still Tigers fault, if you send me Tiger logs of those lost on time
games, because they clearly state that Tiger would have used
a few tenths of a second more than allowed in its last move.

Regards,
Guenther

Hi Guenther,

I don't have logs right now (I'm too lazy to manage this usually) and I unthicked "Auto Flag" to make sure the games don't end prematurately. I still get "White Flag fell" or "Black Flag Fell" at least once in 10 games - usually 40/4- with Tiger 2007.1 .

Next time Tiger plays games, I'll try to think about saving .debug files and having Auto Flag = on.

Hi Marc,

You need also to enable Tigers own log in the *.cpeini file
for an investigation.

Regards,
Guenther

[Marc MP]

Hi Marc,

You need also to enable Tigers own log in the *.cpeini file
for an investigation.

Regards,
Guenther

Ok, that is right. I did that this winter when I sent logs to lokasoft. I'll start a match at 40/2 - I should be able to produce something soon.

[mclane]

The new version so far didn't overstep the time so far in 50
games. (moves/minutes

that is what i said too.

[Marc MP]

...

I had none so far in 50 games, when I had around 1 per 10-15 games
before. It still could have been lucky though so far?
I play only ponder off games here. It would be easy to prove
if it is still Tigers fault, if you send me Tiger logs of those lost on time
games, because they clearly state that Tiger would have used
a few tenths of a second more than allowed in its last move.

Regards,
Guenther

Hi again,

Tiger just lost two in a row... I'll send you the logs shortly.

So unfortunate... this was chess from another planet.
I find that Chess Tiger - Strelka fights are complete craziness!! From game 1:

[White "Strelka 1.0"]
[Black "Chess Tiger 2007.1"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Na5 6. Nc3 {+0.37/10}
b4 {-0.20/13}

[D]r1bqkbnr/2pp1ppp/p7/n3p3/1p2P3/1BN2N2/PPPP1PPP/R1BQK2R w KQkq - 0 1

7. Bxf7+ {+0.57/10} Kxf7 {+0.26/13} 8. Nxe5+ {+0.38/10}
Ke6 {-0.03/13} 9. Qg4+ {+0.54/10} Kxe5 {+0.24/12} 10. Qf5+ {+0.42/10}
Kd6 {+0.08/13} 11. Qxa5 {+0.29/10} Rb8 {+0.00/13} 12. Ne2 {+0.31/9}
Rb5 {+1.72/12}

[D]2bq1bnr/2pp2pp/p2k4/Qr6/1p2P3/8/PPPPNPPP/R1B1K2R w KQ - 3 1

13. Qa4 {+0.30/10} Ke7 {+1.54/12} 14. Nd4 {+0.31/10}
Rb6 {+1.78/13} 15. O-O {+0.41/9} Bb7 {+1.72/12} 16. d3 {+0.41/9}
Ke8 {+1.46/12} 17. Be3 {+0.46/9} Nf6 {+1.46/11} 18. Nf3 {+0.50/10}
c5 {+1.42/12} 19. Ne5 {+0.38/9} Rb5 {+1.80/11} 20. Qb3 {+0.38/8}
d5 {+1.62/13} 21. f4 {+0.11/9} Bd6 {+2.02/12} 22. Rae1 {+0.00/8}
Qc7 {+2.20/13} 23. exd5 {-0.18/9} Bxd5 {+2.50/13} 24. c4 {-0.38/10}
bxc3 {+2.84/13} 25. Qxc3 {-0.29/10} Bxa2 {+2.55/12} 26. Bd2 {-0.62/10}
Kf8 {+2.94/12} 27. Qa3 {-0.75/10} Bd5 {+3.28/12} 28. Bc3 {-0.79/10}
Bb7 {+3.36/12} 29. Qa4 {-0.53/9} Qc8 {+3.36/10} 30. Re3 {-0.45/9}
Bc7 {+3.42/10} 31. Rg3 {-0.49/9} Qe6 {+3.30/10} 32. Re1 {-0.21/8}
Qd6 {+3.00/11} 33. Rg5 {-0.12/9} Bd8 {+2.94/10} 34. f5 {+0.03/9}
Bc7 {+3.38/10} 35. Qh4 {+0.00/9} Rg8 {+0.60/12} 36. Ng4 {+0.00/9}
Nxg4 {+0.28/11} 37. Rxg4 {+0.79/8}

[D]5kr1/1bb3pp/p2q4/1rp2P2/6RQ/2BP4/1P4PP/4R1K1 b - - 0 1

Qxh2+ {+0.17/10} 38. Qxh2 {+0.86/10}
Bxh2+ {+0.18/9} 39. Kxh2 {+1.00/11} Kf7 {-0.14/10} 40. Kg3 {+0.87/11}
{White wins on time} 1-0


[Event "Strelka-CT20071(semiopen50),"]
[Site "AMD Athlon, 1.4 Ghz 256M RAM"]
[Date "2007.05.06"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Strelka 1.0"]
[Black "Chess Tiger 2007.1"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "40/120"]
[Annotator "6. +0.37 6... -0.20"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Na5 6. Nc3 {+0.37/10}
b4 {-0.20/13} 7. Bxf7+ {+0.57/10} Kxf7 {+0.26/13} 8. Nxe5+ {+0.38/10}
Ke6 {-0.03/13} 9. Qg4+ {+0.54/10} Kxe5 {+0.24/12} 10. Qf5+ {+0.42/10}
Kd6 {+0.08/13} 11. Qxa5 {+0.29/10} Rb8 {+0.00/13} 12. Ne2 {+0.31/9}
Rb5 {+1.72/12} 13. Qa4 {+0.30/10} Ke7 {+1.54/12} 14. Nd4 {+0.31/10}
Rb6 {+1.78/13} 15. O-O {+0.41/9} Bb7 {+1.72/12} 16. d3 {+0.41/9}
Ke8 {+1.46/12} 17. Be3 {+0.46/9} Nf6 {+1.46/11} 18. Nf3 {+0.50/10}
c5 {+1.42/12} 19. Ne5 {+0.38/9} Rb5 {+1.80/11} 20. Qb3 {+0.38/8}
d5 {+1.62/13} 21. f4 {+0.11/9} Bd6 {+2.02/12} 22. Rae1 {+0.00/8}
Qc7 {+2.20/13} 23. exd5 {-0.18/9} Bxd5 {+2.50/13} 24. c4 {-0.38/10}
bxc3 {+2.84/13} 25. Qxc3 {-0.29/10} Bxa2 {+2.55/12} 26. Bd2 {-0.62/10}
Kf8 {+2.94/12} 27. Qa3 {-0.75/10} Bd5 {+3.28/12} 28. Bc3 {-0.79/10}
Bb7 {+3.36/12} 29. Qa4 {-0.53/9} Qc8 {+3.36/10} 30. Re3 {-0.45/9}
Bc7 {+3.42/10} 31. Rg3 {-0.49/9} Qe6 {+3.30/10} 32. Re1 {-0.21/8}
Qd6 {+3.00/11} 33. Rg5 {-0.12/9} Bd8 {+2.94/10} 34. f5 {+0.03/9}
Bc7 {+3.38/10} 35. Qh4 {+0.00/9} Rg8 {+0.60/12} 36. Ng4 {+0.00/9}
Nxg4 {+0.28/11} 37. Rxg4 {+0.79/8} Qxh2+ {+0.17/10} 38. Qxh2 {+0.86/10}
Bxh2+ {+0.18/9} 39. Kxh2 {+1.00/11} Kf7 {-0.14/10} 40. Kg3 {+0.87/11}
{White wins on time} 1-0

[Event "Strelka-CT20071(semiopen50),"]
[Site "AMD Athlon, 1.4 Ghz 256M RAM"]
[Date "2007.05.06"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Chess Tiger 2007.1"]
[Black "Strelka 1.0"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "40/120"]
[Annotator "6. +0.20 6... -0.16"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Na5 6. d3 {+0.20/12}
Bd6 {-0.16/10} 7. O-O {+0.44/13} Ne7 {-0.24/12} 8. Bd5 {+0.38/13}
Nxd5 {-0.11/12} 9. exd5 {+0.40/10} Bb7 {+0.01/11} 10. Bd2 {+0.48/14}
b4 {-0.16/12} 11. c4 {+0.74/14} O-O {-0.19/10} 12. Qa4 {+0.64/13}
c5 {-0.07/11} 13. Ng5 {+1.12/15} Be7 {+0.19/11} 14. a3 {+0.90/15}
Bxg5 {-0.27/12} 15. Bxg5 {+0.86/16} Qxg5 {-0.17/12} 16. Qxa5 {+0.78/10}
bxa3 {-0.15/12} 17. Rxa3 {+0.74/13} d6 {-0.16/11} 18. Qc7 {+0.49/13}
Bc8 {-0.07/12} 19. d4 {+0.34/13} cxd4 {-0.16/12} 20. Qxd6 {+0.40/13}
Rd8 {-0.22/12} 21. Qc7 {+0.28/12} Rd7 {+0.04/12} 22. Qc5 {+0.16/12}
Rb8 {+0.05/11} 23. f4 {+0.08/11} Qe7 {-0.34/11} 24. b4 {+0.10/13}
e4 {-0.46/12} 25. Qxd4 {+0.14/13} Rxb4 {-0.64/11} 26. Nd2 {+0.21/12}
f5 {-0.30/10} 27. Ra5 {+0.25/12} Rd8 {-0.08/11} 28. Rfa1 {+0.33/11}
Qd6 {-0.16/10} 29. g3 {+0.40/12} Kf7 {-0.10/10} 30. Qe5 {+0.51/11}
Rb8 {-0.19/11} 31. R1a4 {+0.56/12} Qxe5 {+0.47/10} 32. fxe5 {+1.36/8}
e3 {+0.00/11} 33. Nf3 {+1.37/11} Rb1+ {+0.00/11} 34. Kg2 {+0.38/12}
Rb2+ {+0.00/11} 35. Kh3 {+1.04/11} Rf2 {+0.53/10} 36. Nd4 {+0.64/9}
Rd2 {+0.28/11} 37. e6+ {+0.04/10} Kf6 {+0.18/12} 38. Nf3 {-0.11/12}
Rf2 {+0.00/13} 39. Nd4 {-0.13/12} Bb7 {+0.28/12}
{Black wins on time} 0-1

[chessfurby]

I was just questioning the threadstarters intention. He is suggesting that Christophe (and prolly every other author whose engine is < than Rybka) should not try to go on. Don't bother to fight. Just give up.

Now first of all i do not think that any author needs this kind of "Motivation". Many others share this feeling obvisouly. Secondly some authors do what they do for funs sake. Even though the engine cannot beat rybka, they enjoy working on it and have fun!

My point is ... Erik is suggesting that engine authors should stop simply because they cannot make big progress and match Rybka ...

I simply did the same. I am asking Erik to stop posting here. I used this as a metaphor. "Stop doing what you enjoy" ... understand now? That was the point of my post.


@Tony:

Last time i checked the new version did beat CT2007. But i'll let you figure that out

[eriq]

I understand what you mean and I would feel bad if asked to quit anything that I felt, that I was capable of handling but, PRIDE is the doom of us all! How many times has a fighter stayed in the ring too long, well passed his prime only to be injured to the point that he could not enjoy his retirement? There are plenty of ways for such a great programmer to make money. We are all assuming that he can only do chess programing this is not so. The programmer of tiger is greatly talented, I think we underestimate him. My post was intended to simply state the fact that their are better things to consume one's time with. Too often we run through life pursuing things without real value only to find at the end, how wrong we were. This man has a family, this demands of him two things, time and money and the way I see it chess in general is a waste of both! One could become 2500 fide and die broke, one could have the strongest chess engine for a years time and die broke. There is little money in chess period. But every moment that I spend with my daughter or son is priceless I know this now, but didn't always. I also would like to say that I think that some of the other posters are against this because of selfish reasons. They 'believe that they are going to lose another toy, but this is his life I'm concerned with, I have plenty of toys I would rather see someone doing well in life than well in chess.

[eriq]

that is not what I meant, I think i've seen bricks that could reason better. Perhaps taking a logic class would help.

[tiger]

I understand what you mean and I would feel bad if asked to quit anything that I felt, that I was capable of handling but, PRIDE is the doom of us all! How many times has a fighter stayed in the ring too long, well passed his prime only to be injured to the point that he could not enjoy his retirement? There are plenty of ways for such a great programmer to make money. We are all assuming that he can only do chess programing this is not so. The programmer of tiger is greatly talented, I think we underestimate him. My post was intended to simply state the fact that their are better things to consume one's time with. Too often we run through life pursuing things without real value only to find at the end, how wrong we were. This man has a family, this demands of him two things, time and money and the way I see it chess in general is a waste of both! One could become 2500 fide and die broke, one could have the strongest chess engine for a years time and die broke. There is little money in chess period. But every moment that I spend with my daughter or son is priceless I know this now, but didn't always. I also would like to say that I think that some of the other posters are against this because of selfish reasons. They 'believe that they are going to lose another toy, but this is his life I'm concerned with, I have plenty of toys I would rather see someone doing well in life than well in chess.

Thank you for clarifying your point of view Eriq.

I actually guessed right what you meant, but I was not completely sure, so I could not comment more.

I actually share partly your point of view. I try to spend as much time as possible with my little daughter Amandine (you can see her mother and her when she was 4 months old in my avatar, now she's 2 and a half) and I enjoy every second of it.

Her birth is one of the reasons why Tiger has stagnated for 3 years (to be honest it is far from being the only reason).

She is my priority and Tiger is not anymore.

However I still have many ideas and I still feel that I have not accomplished what I wanted with Tiger. I still believe that several good search principles have escaped my understanding, and I'm still curious to discover them. This is driving me more than the desire to make Tiger stronger than the other chess engines.

For example there are in Tiger some clean search principles and I'm happy with them. However there are also a number of dirty tricks that work, but I do not really know why. I'm trying to elaborate a kind of theory that will unify them, in order to rewrite them in a way that would both make sense (explain why they work) and take advantage of all of them in a more elegant way.

I have started to do that in Chess Tiger 2007 and 2007.1. So this version might not look very remarkable to some, but it is an important step for me.

I am definitely going in the right direction and even if times are hard I don't see any reason to stop or give away my work for free.


// Christophe

[eriq]

Good to see that your heart is in the right place; well I wish you the best, of course and continued success on improving the engine. Your engine will always be one of my favorites.

Weirdly enough ct 14 continues to vex me like no other

btw: if not too much to ask, I would love to see a version for linux some day, after that nasty vista came out, I realized that changes must be made

[tiger]

Good to see that your heart is in the right place; well I wish you the best, of course and continued success on improving the engine. Your engine will always be one of my favorites.

Weirdly enough ct 14 continues to vex me like no other

btw: if not too much to ask, I would love to see a version for linux some day, after that nasty vista came out, I realized that changes must be made

It is a shame that I have not yet released Tiger as a Linux engine, as I have advocated myself in favor of Linux very often here, and as I have Linux (Mandriva 2006) installed on all my computers (I also have XP).

But I had not enough time to work on Tiger in the last year and I decided to invest the little I had in improving the engine "in place". The Linux version will have to wait before I can stabilize it and release it. For this one I am seriously considering to provide it for free (but not with the sources).


// Christophe