Opening question

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Eelco de Groot
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Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   Eelco de Groot

Opening question

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Hello,

Investigating the openings that the new Alaric plays with the book made by Günther Simon, I came upon the following standard position in the Sicilian Richter - Rauzer, where one of the possible choices in the book is to play, after the variation defining 6.Bg5, as a reply 6...g7?! This is really very seldomly played in practice and only gets a footnote in Nunn's BCO for instance.

[d]r1bqkb1r/pp2pp1p/2np1np1/6B1/3NP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2QKB1R w KQkq - 0 7

What do you guys think? Is 6... g7 in the Richter - Rauzer totally unplayable for Black? :P Does anybody know some games with this, and Günther, how did it come in Alaric's book?

In a testgame Shredder 9 against Alaric Deep IIb, Alaric Deep did not handle the posion the best way and did not have much chance. I was wondering whether to just find a way to give 6...g7 a ? somehow in the book to let Alaric Deep IIb not play this anymore, maybe Alaric default would play the variation better, I think Default Alaric 707 would not soon play after 7. Bxf6 exf6 8. Qd2, 8... Be7?! which I think is too risky. Could be a Horizon effect, I never know when the settings play something like this, whether it's brilliant or just temporarily blinded :oops:

At one point I was convinced the move 6...g7 is totally unplayable but then the next question was, as the book stops here, and Shredder for instance only has 7. Bxf6 exf6 8. Qd2 in its large book, is that line enough of a refutation of g7 or could it be built upon in case Alaric would encounter it with White, to totally refute 6...g7? That would also prove Alaric should never play this with Black.

But now I'm not totally sure anymore the line should go. It looks very ugly and especially dangerous to human eyes, because Black gets saddled with a double pawn f7-f6 blocking the fianchettoed Bishop if Black does not develop its Bishop to e7. A pawn storm could be possible as soon as White castles long, but not every program is inclined to start such a thing.

At the moment I'm still trying to keep this variation alive. :roll: Maybe I should know better than trying, or trying to make a book. I hope if I get enough material, I have not done it in vain when I find there is no way to ever add my lines to the book. Bookmaking: it seems to be a very tedious and difficult process, and my respect for bookmakers is growing all the time, all comments and new lines have to be correct and then all analysis has to be split, one .pgn game for every possible line, at least that's how I understand Marc Lacrosse's instructions on this very helpful page: http://users.skynet.be/mlcc/chessbazaar ... ngFAQ.html

A treasure trove of information here on this page but making a book this way still seems a real Sisyphus task, with in adddition about ten thousand ways of going wrong somewhere...

A better editor for the book makers would help a bit but I think I would still have to add lines by merging books, adding single moves to a position with an opening editor does not seem to be possible in the books for Alaric, nor in any kind of book format that I've seen so far? It would seem a natural thing to do, but apparently it is not so easy to make.

This was the testgame Alaric Deep IIb lost:

[Event "6 minuten per partij + 6 seconden per zet"]
[Site "Engine Match"]
[Date "2007.07.15"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Shredder 9 UCI"]
[Black "Alaric 707 Deep IIb"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Bg5
g6 7. Bxf6 exf6 8. Qd2 Be7 9. O-O-O Nxd4 10. Qxd4 O-O
11. Nd5 f5 12. h4 fxe4 13. h5 Bg5+ 14. Kb1 Bf5 15. h6 f6
16. f4 exf3 17. gxf3 Rc8 18. Bd3 Bxd3 19. Rxd3 Qe8 20. f4
Bxh6 21. Re3 Qb5 22. Ne7+ Kh8 23. Qd1 Rc7 24. Rxh6 Re8
25. Nxg6+ Kg8 26. Rh5 Qa4 27. Qd5+ Kg7 28. b3 Rxe3 29. bxa4
hxg6 30. Qxd6 Rce7 31. Rh4 Re8 32. Qd7+ 1-0


Here are some lines I have found so far but it is only in one possible subvariation, with White developing its Bishop to c4. Still, Black here at least was holding out better than I thought possible!


[Event "6 minuten per partij + 6 seconden per zet"]
[Site "Engine Match"]
[Date "2007.07.15"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Shredder 9 UCI"]
[Black "Alaric 707 Deep IIb"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Bg5
g6 $2 7. Bxf6 exf6 8. Qd2 Be7 $2 (8... Bg7 9. Bb5
(9. O-O-O) (9. Bc4 O-O 10. Ndb5 f5 11. O-O-O Qb6 12. h4
fxe4 13. h5 Ne5 14. Bb3 Bf5 15. hxg6 Bxg6 (15... hxg6 $6
{Dubitable choice from Alaric Deep IIb. Better avoid this
in an opening book, if 6..g7 would not get a ? NAG value}
16. Nd5 Qd8 17. Kb1) 16. Qf4 Rad8 (16... Nd7) 17. a4 d5
(17... Nc6 {seems worse } 18. Nxe4 $14) 18. Nxd5 Qc5
19. Kb1 (19. Qh4 {Hiarcs plays this for some time. Alaric
responds 19...Nc6 that seems reasonable. Hiarcs plays -0.17
19...Tfe8 20.Dg5 Kf8 21.De3 Dxe3+}) 19... Nd3 {[d]3r1rk1/pp3pbp/6b1/1NqN4/P3pQ2/1B1n4/1PP2PP1/1K1R3R w - -

:!: Yes! I think Black is still, somewhat, alive, if it could get to play this virtual novelty! Will Alaric Deep IIb ever get a chance play this, will I ever succeed in finding some miraculous lines to save the whole 6...g7 variation and then get it somehow into Alaric's book? Will this line ever appear in a game...}

{19...Nd3: this appears to be the best option for Black. Now possible is -0.36 19...Pd3 20.cxd3 Txd5 21.Lxd5 Dxd5 22.d4 e3+ 23.Ka1 e2
24.Tde1 Te8 25.Pc3 Dxg2 26.Thg1 Dc6 27.Tg3 Dd7 28.Dd2 Dxd4
29.Txe2 Dxd2 30.Txd2 (Alaric) or -0.29 19...Pd3 20.Pf6+
Lxf6 21.Dxf6 Dxf2 22.De7 Tde8 23.Da3 Pe5 (Hiarcs) }
(19... Nc6) 20. Nf6+ (20. cxd3)) (9. Ndb5 O-O 10. O-O-O
(10. Nxd6) 10... Be6 11. Be2 (11. a3) (11. Nxd6)) 9... O-O
(9... Bd7 10. O-O-O) 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Nxc6) (8... Nxd4
9. Qxd4 Bh6 10. Bb5+) 9. O-O-O Nxd4 10. Qxd4 O-O 11. Nd5 f5
12. h4 fxe4 13. h5 Bg5+ 14. Kb1 Bf5 15. h6 f6 16. f4 exf3
17. gxf3 Rc8 18. Bd3 Bxd3 19. Rxd3 Qe8 20. f4 Bxh6 21. Re3
Qb5 22. Ne7+ Kh8 23. Qd1 Rc7 24. Rxh6 Re8 25. Nxg6+ Kg8
26. Rh5 Qa4 27. Qd5+ Kg7 28. b3 Rxe3 29. bxa4 hxg6 30. Qxd6
Rce7 31. Rh4 Re8 32. Qd7+ 1-0

Eelco
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George Tsavdaris
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:35 pm

Re: Opening question

Post by George Tsavdaris »

The move you have said one million times in this post 6...g7, does not exist. :D
Correct is of course 6...g6.
Eelco de Groot wrote: What do you guys think? Is 6... g7 in the Richter - Rauzer totally unplayable for Black? :P Does anybody know some games with this, and Günther, how did it come in Alaric's book?
It is playable but it is a dubious move.... Better stick with the classic 6...e6
And of course no 8...Be7? but only 8...Bg8.
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....
Ron Murawski
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:38 am
Location: Schenectady, NY

Re: Opening question

Post by Ron Murawski »

George Tsavdaris wrote:The move you have said one million times in this post 6...g7, does not exist. :D
Correct is of course 6...g6.
Eelco de Groot wrote: What do you guys think? Is 6... g7 in the Richter - Rauzer totally unplayable for Black? :P Does anybody know some games with this, and Günther, how did it come in Alaric's book?
It is playable but it is a dubious move.... Better stick with the classic 6...e6
And of course no 8...Be7? but only 8...Bg8.
6...Qb6 or 6...a6 seem to be equally as good as 6...e6. Also, 6...Bd7 is playable but not as good.

6...Qa5 and 6...h6 have gotten good results but have not been played enough to be trusted.

Ron
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icander
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Location: Lulea, Sweden

Re: Opening question

Post by icander »

George Tsavdaris wrote:The move you have said one million times in this post 6...g7, does not exist. :D
Correct is of course 6...g6.
Eelco de Groot wrote: What do you guys think? Is 6... g7 in the Richter - Rauzer totally unplayable for Black? :P Does anybody know some games with this, and Günther, how did it come in Alaric's book?
It is playable but it is a dubious move.... Better stick with the classic 6...e6
And of course no 8...Be7? but only 8...Bg8.
8...Bg8 does not exist. Correct is of course 8...Bg7. :D
Tony, SSDF
User avatar
George Tsavdaris
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:35 pm

Re: Opening question

Post by George Tsavdaris »

icander wrote:
George Tsavdaris wrote:The move you have said one million times in this post 6...g7, does not exist. :D
Correct is of course 6...g6.
Eelco de Groot wrote: What do you guys think? Is 6... g7 in the Richter - Rauzer totally unplayable for Black? :P Does anybody know some games with this, and Günther, how did it come in Alaric's book?
It is playable but it is a dubious move.... Better stick with the classic 6...e6
And of course no 8...Be7? but only 8...Bg8.
8...Bg8 does not exist. Correct is of course 8...Bg7. :D
Oops! Eelco's virus infected me too.... :D
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....
User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4662
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   Eelco de Groot

Re: Opening question

Post by Eelco de Groot »

George Tsavdaris wrote:
icander wrote:
George Tsavdaris wrote:The move you have said one million times in this post 6...g7, does not exist. :D
Correct is of course 6...g6.
Eelco de Groot wrote: What do you guys think? Is 6... g7 in the Richter - Rauzer totally unplayable for Black? :P Does anybody know some games with this, and Günther, how did it come in Alaric's book?
It is playable but it is a dubious move.... Better stick with the classic 6...e6
And of course no 8...Be7? but only 8...Bg8.
8...Bg8 does not exist. Correct is of course 8...Bg7. :D
Oops! Eelco's virus infected me too.... :D
That's what I meant with ten thousand times that you may do something wrong doing all this analysis.. But of course here all this was intentional. We do this to confuse the search-bots. We don't want everybody to know our opening novelties, this is priviliged information for CCC members only. :)

Black by the way is still Ok in the variation with that particular pawn move I won't mention again.

With a big amount of luck, Black might reach the following position in another variation:

[d]r4rk1/pp3pbp/6p1/3N1n2/8/P7/1PPQBqPP/1K1R3R w - -

Not very good maybe, but it is still playable. In a small testmatch Alaric Deep IIb against Hiarcs 11.1, both scored a point, and both won with the black pieces!

The game where Alaric had Black was a pretty endgame win I think:


[Event "6 minuten per partij + 6 seconden per zet"]
[Site "Engine Match"]
[Date "2007.07.15"]
[Round "1"]
[White "HIARCS 11.1 Default"]
[Black "Alaric 707 Deep IIb"]
[Result "0-1"]


18. g4 {+0.29/13 27s} Nd4 {-0.12/16 23s} 19. Bc4 {+0.33/13
19s} Qxd2 {-0.21/17 21s} 20. Rxd2 {+0.27/14 17s} Rae8
{-0.13/17 21s} 21. Rf1 {+0.25/13 20s} Re4 {-0.25/16 24s}
22. h3 {+0.25/13 17s} Rfe8 {-0.22/15 19s} 23. Nf6+
{+0.60/13 13s} Bxf6 {-0.06/17 18s} 24. Rxf6 {+0.50/14 10s}
R8e7 {-0.08/16 18s} 25. Bd5 {+0.32/14 25s} Re1+ {+0.14/17
18s} 26. Ka2 {+0.20/14 4s} Ne2 {+0.06/17 17s} 27. Kb3
{+0.25/13 13s} Kg7 {+0.01/16 19s} 28. g5 {+0.16/14 27s} Ng3
{+0.36/15 16s} 29. Rf4 {-0.02/13 21s} Nf5 {+0.31/15 16s}
30. h4 {+0.14/12 15s} h6 {+0.33/14 16s} 31. Ka2 {-0.24/13
42s} b6 {+0.57/14 15s} 32. Rdf2 {-0.03/12 15s} hxg5
{+0.67/17 15s} 33. hxg5 {-0.20/14 3s} Rg1 {+0.52/17 30s}
34. Rg2 {-0.43/14 8s} Rxg2 {+0.56/18 14s} 35. Bxg2
{-0.46/15 3s} Ne3 {+0.80/19 14s} 36. Be4 {-0.71/16 13s} Re5
{+1.02/19 13s} 37. Bd3 {-0.80/16 13s} Rxg5 {+1.05/18 13s}
38. Re4 {-0.67/16 13s} Nd5 {+0.94/19 15s} 39. c4 {-0.81/15
21s} Rg3 {+1.31/18 13s} 40. Rd4 {-0.93/15 14s} Nf4
{+1.32/18 12s} 41. Bc2 {-0.96/15 9s} g5 {+1.37/17 12s}
42. b4 {-1.14/14 23s} Re3 {+1.69/16 14s} 43. Kb2 {-1.42/14
12s} Ne6 {+1.75/17 12s} 44. Rd5 {-1.47/15 12s} Kf6
{+1.75/17 12s} 45. Bd1 {-1.78/15 28s} Nf4 {+1.75/16 16s}
46. Rd6+ {-1.46/14 10s} Ke5 {+1.92/17 11s} 47. Rd7
{-1.51/14 13s} Rd3 {+1.82/17 11s} 48. Re7+ {-1.21/13 10s}
Kf6 {+1.69/17 14s} 49. Re1 {-1.16/13 2s} g4 {+1.64/15 10s}
50. c5 {-0.95/12 9s} bxc5 {+1.59/15 16s} 51. bxc5 {-0.94/12
9s} g3 {+1.60/14 10s} 52. c6 {-1.00/12 8s} Ne6 {+1.65/13
10s} 53. Bc2 {-1.22/12 9s} Rd5 {+1.64/14 16s} 54. Bb3
{-1.44/13 18s} Re5 {+1.45/13 11s} 55. Rd1 {-1.44/13 15s}
Nf4 {+1.60/12 9s} 56. Rf1 {-1.14/13 33s} Kf5 {+1.63/13 11s}
57. Rg1 {-1.07/13 26s} g2 {+2.16/13 8s} 58. Bd1 {-2.98/13
19s} Ke4 {+3.31/15 8s} 59. Ka2 {-3.22/13 10s} Rg5 {+3.48/14
14s} 60. Re1+ {-4.60/14 24s} Kd4 {+4.28/15 8s} 61. c7
{-4.60/14 6s} Rc5 {+4.52/16 8s} 62. Bf3 {-5.00/14 13s} Rxc7
{+4.68/16 8s} 63. Re4+ {-5.49/15 14s} Kd3 {+4.80/18 8s}
64. Re1 {-5.50/15 5s} f5 {+4.81/17 8s})) 0-1

[d]8/p1r5/8/5p2/5n2/P2k1B2/K5p1/4R3 w - -

0-1 :!:

One does not beat the mighty Hiarcs every day like that! :)

Eelco