Is there a convincing solution for Quick.03?

[Dann Corbit]

[d]3Q4/3p4/P2p4/N2b4/8/4P3/5p1p/5Kbk w - - bm Qa8; id Quick-03;

Code: Select all

37) Qa8; id Quick-03;   
    Searching move: Qd8-a8
    Best move (Rybka v1.2.w32): Qd8-f6
    Not found in: 2:30:00
      2	00:00	           0	0	-0.62	Qd8g5
      3	00:00	          16	16.384	-1.65	Qd8g5
      4	00:00	          64	65.536	-1.64	Qd8g5 Bd5e4
      5	00:00	         104	106.496	-1.37	Qd8g5 Bd5e4 Kf1e2
      6	00:00	         176	180.224	-1.50	Qd8g5 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Be4g2
      7	00:00	         376	22.648	-1.66	Qd8g5 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Be4g2 Qg5f4
      8	00:00	         680	40.960	-1.74	Qd8g5 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Be4g2 Qg5f4 f2f1Q+ Qf4xf1 Bg2xf1+ Ke2xf1 Bg1xe3
      9	00:00	       1.368	82.401	-1.51	Qd8g5 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Be4g2 Qg5f4 f2f1Q+ Qf4xf1 Bg2xf1+ Ke2xf1 Bg1xe3 Na5b7
     10	00:01	       7.184	66.274	-0.61	Qd8g5 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Be4g2 Qg5f4 f2f1Q+ Qf4xf1 Bg2xf1+ Ke2xf1 Bg1xe3 Na5b7 d6d5
     11	00:01	      18.328	79.524	-0.13	Qd8g5 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Be4d3+ Ke2xd3 f2f1Q+ Kd3d2 Qf1f3 a6a7 Bg1f2 Na5c4 Bf2g3
     11	00:01	      96.040	110.252	 0.00	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Kh1g2 Qf6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3
     12	00:01	     101.408	108.734	 0.00	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Kh1g2 Qf6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3
     13	00:01	     110.064	110.821	 0.00	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Kh1g2 Qf6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3
     14	00:02	     127.776	112.990	 0.00	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Kh1g2 Qf6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3
     15	00:02	     148.192	115.486	 0.00	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Kh1g2 Qf6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3
     16	00:02	     188.560	118.748	 0.00	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Kh1g2 Qf6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3
     17	00:03	     269.808	120.227	 0.00	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Kh1g2 Qf6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3
     18	00:04	     406.504	118.897	 0.00	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Kf1e2 Kh1g2 Qf6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3 Qg5h6+ Kh3g2 Qh6g5+ Kg2h3
     19	00:07	     777.832	115.568	+0.32	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     20	00:09	     981.864	115.301	+0.32	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     21	00:13	   1.424.192	115.505	+0.32	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     22	00:24	   2.673.616	116.032	+0.19	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     23	00:51	   5.747.712	115.613	+0.17	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     24	01:22	   8.659.144	108.235	+0.17	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     25	02:07	  12.851.144	103.809	+0.17	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     26	03:27	  20.043.400	99.338	+0.17	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     27	05:44	  32.245.168	96.186	+0.17	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     28	09:53	  54.079.080	93.438	+0.17	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     29	26:06	 159.521.512	104.329	+0.15	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     30	41:06	 244.119.640	101.369	+0.15	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
     31	1:03:43	 368.038.008	98.583	+0.15	Qd8f6 Bd5e4 Qf6xf2 Be4d3+ Qf2e2 Bd3xe2+ Kf1xe2 Kh1g2 a6a7 h2h1Q a7a8Q+ Kg2h2 Qa8h8+ Kh2g2
   11/25/2007 2:54:03 PM, Time for this analysis: 02:30:01, Rated time: 33:40:49

[bob]

what about this one?

Code: Select all

               19    12.61  Mat09   1. Qa8 Bxa8 2. Nb7 d5 3. Nd6 Bc6 4.
                                    a7 d4 5. e4 Ba4 6. a8=Q Bc6 7. Qxc6
                                    dxc6 8. Nf5 d3 9. Ng3#
               19->  12.61  Mat09   1. Qa8 Bxa8 2. Nb7 d5 3. Nd6 Bc6 4.
                                    a7 d4 5. e4 Ba4 6. a8=Q Bc6 7. Qxc6
                                    dxc6 8. Nf5 d3 9. Ng3# (s=9)

[Dann Corbit]

Now that's convincing!

[Mike S.]

I think 02,03,13 are ok, but 05,09,10 are not optimal:

In Quick-05, some engines will choose Rxf7+ without having found that it draws, only assigning an eval which is slightly less bad than for the queen move they considered before. Other engines will not sacrifice the rook before they find a 0.00 eval for it (as intended), which may take more time. IOW the "correct move for wrong reason" problem of a test position.

In Quick-09 (am Nxe4?), a few engines choose bad alternatives after they found that Nxe4 is a blunder. I think I have seen at least one engine switch to Nxc6? which "solves" the am position technically... (I do not know if EPD can restrict the acceptable alternatives.)

In Quick-10 with 20.g5!, a strong player pointed me to the later move 23.Nef4 which is crucial. Some engines which decide for 20.g5, may fail to play 23.Nef4 or at least, they do not get it in the test position, yet. Another possible case of "correct move for wrong, or incomplete reason", if our only test condition is to choose the bm (which always was my approach), disregarding anything else.

These problems occur rarely, nevertheless I must admit I failed because my concept, or plan was to have a tactical test set which is small but 100% reliable in terms of correctness AND with sufficient, unambigous bm/am solutions. - But I think 20 or 21 from 24 achieve that goal.

P.S. Quick-06,15,19 are great Crafty moves, each.

[Pradu]

[d]3Q4/3p4/P2p4/N2b4/8/4P3/5p1p/5Kbk w - - bm Qa8; id Quick-03;

It is interesting to note that the mate is found very quickly when Qa8 is forced:

Code: Select all

Buzz on 3Q4/3p4/P2p4/N2b4/8/4P3/5p1p/5Kbk w - -  +Qa8
or Q7/3p4/P2p4/N2b4/8/4P3/5p1p/5Kbk b - -

<depth> <score in centipawns with positive as advantage for side-to move> <time used in centiseconds> <nodes searched> <PV>
1 957 0 1 Bxa8
1 957 0 7 Bxa8
2 927 0 211 Bxa8 Nb7
2 927 0 222 Bxa8 Nb7
3 933 0 263 Bxa8 Nb7 d5
3 933 0 285 Bxa8 Nb7 d5
4 919 0 326 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6
4 919 0 355 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6
5 934 0 457 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6
5 934 0 480 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6
6 877 1 573 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 Ba8
6 877 1 611 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 Ba8
7 1009 3 4738 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nc5 d4 e4 Bc6
7 1009 3 4782 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nc5 d4 e4 Bc6
8 1030 4 11064 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 d4 e4 d3 a7 d2 Ke2
8 1030 4 11112 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 d4 e4 d3 a7 d2 Ke2
9 1081 6 17144 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 d4 e4 d3 Nb7 d2 Ke2
9 1081 6 17192 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 d4 e4 d3 Nb7 d2 Ke2
10 1160 9 23605 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 d4 e4 Bc6 a7 d3 Nf5 Bxe4
10 1160 9 23653 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 d4 e4 Bc6 a7 d3 Nf5 Bxe4
11 814 10 26547 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 Ba8 Nf5 d6 Nxd6 Bc6 Ke2
11 814 17 46341 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 Ba8 Nf5 d6 Nxd6 Bc6 Ke2
12 -280 20 54848 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 Ba4 a8=Q Bb3 Qb7 Ba2 Qb5 Bc4+ Nxc4
12 -280 21 58571 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 Ba4 a8=Q Bb3 Qb7 Ba2 Qb5 Bc4+ Nxc4
13 -280 23 63935 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 Ba4 a8=Q Bb3 Qb7 Ba2 Qb5 Bc4+ Nxc4 dxc4
13 -280 26 73266 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 Ba4 a8=Q Bb3 Qb7 Ba2 Qb5 Bc4+ Nxc4 dxc4
14 -433 31 87140 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 d4 e4 Ba4 a8=Q Bc6 Qa6 d3 Qa3 Bxe4
14 -433 32 94913 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 d4 e4 Ba4 a8=Q Bc6 Qa6 d3 Qa3 Bxe4
15 -679 82 341516 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 d4 e4 Bb7 Nxb7 d3 a8=Q d2 Qa4 d5 e5 d4
15 -679 84 344863 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 d4 e4 Bb7 Nxb7 d3 a8=Q d2 Qa4 d5 e5 d4
16 -31984 87 358003 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 d4 e4 Bb7 a8=Q Ba6+ Qxa6 d3 Nf5 d5 Ng3#
16 -31984 110 512682 Bxa8 Nb7 d5 Nd6 Bc6 a7 d4 e4 Bb7 a8=Q Ba6+ Qxa6 d3 Nf5 d5 Ng3#

[Dann Corbit]

I think 02,03,13 are ok, but 05,09,10 are not optimal:

In Quick-05, some engines will choose Rxf7+ without having found that it draws, only assigning an eval which is slightly less bad than for the queen move they considered before. Other engines will not sacrifice the rook before they find a 0.00 eval for it (as intended), which may take more time. IOW the "correct move for wrong reason" problem of a test position.

In Quick-09 (am Nxe4?), a few engines choose bad alternatives after they found that Nxe4 is a blunder. I think I have seen at least one engine switch to Nxc6? which "solves" the am position technically... (I do not know if EPD can restrict the acceptable alternatives.)

You can have a list of am values just as you can have a list of bm values.
[d]2kr3r/ppp3pp/2pbbn2/4N3/3Pp3/2P3Pq/PP1NQP1P/R1B2RK1 w - - am Nxe4 Nxc6; id Quick-09;

Since the spec does not specifically state otherwise, I have added both am and bm lists to positions (but found that this absolutely horrifies some chess programmers).

In Quick-10 with 20.g5!, a strong player pointed me to the later move 23.Nef4 which is crucial. Some engines which decide for 20.g5, may fail to play 23.Nef4 or at least, they do not get it in the test position, yet. Another possible case of "correct move for wrong, or incomplete reason", if our only test condition is to choose the bm (which always was my approach), disregarding anything else.

These problems occur rarely, nevertheless I must admit I failed because my concept, or plan was to have a tactical test set which is small but 100% reliable in terms of correctness AND with sufficient, unambigous bm/am solutions. - But I think 20 or 21 from 24 achieve that goal.

P.S. Quick-06,15,19 are great Crafty moves, each.