Best Fruit stylewise?

[Ovyron]

I decided to add Fruit to my analysis repertoire, but there are so many versions I'm confused about which one should join.

Anyway, I want to ask the experts: Which one do you consider to be the best Fruit regarding 'style'?

I know that this is a subjective question, but I'd want to know what Fruit would be the least boring one, playing dynamically or doing original moves.

Also, if you think that there are different versions that have a very different playing style, I'd be interested (Since, if the style has enough difference, I'd add those versions.)

Thanks in advance.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Hi,
Go for Fruit 061115a regarding the issues you requiered,you won't be disappointed....

[Eelco de Groot]

I decided to add Fruit to my analysis repertoire, but there are so many versions I'm confused about which one should join.

Anyway, I want to ask the experts: Which one do you consider to be the best Fruit regarding 'style'?

I know that this is a subjective question, but I'd want to know what Fruit would be the least boring one, playing dynamically or doing original moves.

Also, if you think that there are different versions that have a very different playing style, I'd be interested (Since, if the style has enough difference, I'd add those versions.)

Thanks in advance.

Hello Ulysses,
I think it would be best to try for yourself which versions of Fruit you like best, or maybe experiment with some settings. Also there is the question of comparing Fruit with Toga, the playing style of Toga does not differ very much maybe from the older Fruits but the Fruit 2.3.1, 0611 and later flavours made by Ryan are again relatively different I think. Fruit 05/11/03 certainly deserves a place on its own because of its allround strength.

If you leave Toga out for the moment, I would try Fruit 05/11/03 as a very allround version and one of the strongest. I made some settings for Fruit 05/11/03 that change the playing style a bit I think but not too much. It is still very strong in Blitz, it could still beat Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit in Blitz. It is always possible of course to make even more aggresive settings but I think it would hurt too much strengthwise:

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15580

Fruit 05/11/03 Gambit 008

Hash = 64 [64 Mb used in these testgames]
NalimovPath = C:\Nalimov
NalimovCache = 4
BookFile = book.bin
Time Allocation = 110 [Default = 100]
EGTB = true
EGTB Depth = 5 [Default = 8]
NullMove Pruning = Always
NullMove Reduction = 3
Verification Search = Always
Verification Reduction = 6 [Default = 5]
History Pruning 1 = true
History Depth 1 = 2 [Default = 1]
History PV Node 1 = false
History Move Skip 1 = 3
History Treshold 1 = 45 [Default = 40]
History Reduction 1 = 2
History Leaf Pruning 1 = true
History Pruning 2 = true
History Depth 2 = 2 [Default = 1]
History PV Node 2 = false
History Move Skip 2 = 5
History Treshold 2 = 70
History Reduction 2 = 2 [Default = 1]
History Leaf Pruning 2 = true
History ReSearch = true
Extended Futility Pruning = true
Extended Futility Margin = 300
Material = 102 [Default =100]
Piece Activity = 100
King safety = 125 [Default = 100]
Pawn Structure = 102 [Default = 100]
Passed Pawns = 102 [Default =100]
Pawn = 100
Knight = 101 [Default =100]
Bishop = 100
Rook = 100
Queen = 100
Bishop Pair = 101 [Default =100]
Pawn Duo = true [Default = false]
Pawn Duo Weight = 3 [Default =4]
Pawn Duo Weight (Endgame) = 1 [Default = 0]
Pawn Duo File a+b = 2 [Default =1]
Pawn Duo File b+c = 3 [Default =2]
Pawn Duo File c+d = 4 [Default =3]
Pawn Duo File d+e = 5 [Default =4]
Pawn Duo Rank 2 = 0
Pawn Duo Rank 3 = 0
Pawn Duo Rank 4 = 4
Pawn Duo Rank 5 = 5
Pawn Duo Rank 6 = 6
Pawn Duo Rank 7 = 7
Contempt Factor = 1 [Default =0, 1 avoids draws a little bit]

This is possibly about the best I can do with tuning Fabien's Fruit 05/11/03 for shorter time controls and using King Safety = 125, but it is possible versions with King Safety = 100 will do better. But of course I should play much more games before any final verdict!

Eelco

Of the Fruit versions made later where Ryan chose a different path from Toga with different search algorithms, the best versions are private but Fruit 2.3.1 is certainly worth a look. I also made settings for this version and it can play interestingly and strong but also sometimes it totally loses its footing because of some untested search options in it, it can give away whole pieces in winning positions... This is Fruit 2.3.1 Mandarin, the settings I believe I posted somewhere but maybe this version is not so interesting because of its unpredictable behaviour.

Be careful if you want to change settings, there are an awful lot and for instance in the Shredder ofor Chessbase GUI they can't all be put on the screen, even in the highest resolution! Even for Fruit 05/11/03 they fill up the whole screen. I believe Arena or ChessPartner are best for changing any settings with their scrollable UCI option menus. A workaround is using the setting files for ChessBase or Shredder Classic GUI (.eng for Shredder's (Classic/UCI) interface), there are posts about that or ask here if you can't find something!


On the Fruit official site there are links to the Fruit versions that are now freely downloadable: http://www.fruitchess.com/

Regards, Eelco

[Isaksen]

How about the beta versions of Fruit not avialable to the public.
On playchess, I have seen Fruit 2.3.3 k, l, m
Am much more interested in those.

[Graham Banks]

I decided to add Fruit to my analysis repertoire, but there are so many versions I'm confused about which one should join.

Anyway, I want to ask the experts: Which one do you consider to be the best Fruit regarding 'style'?

I know that this is a subjective question, but I'd want to know what Fruit would be the least boring one, playing dynamically or doing original moves.

Also, if you think that there are different versions that have a very different playing style, I'd be interested (Since, if the style has enough difference, I'd add those versions.)

Thanks in advance.

Fruit 051103 is solid, but not boring.
Fruit 2.3.1 seems to be more aggressive.
Just my opinion.
Both are of similar strength and both are well worth giving a go.

Regards, Graham.

[Stephen Ham]

I decided to add Fruit to my analysis repertoire, but there are so many versions I'm confused about which one should join.

Anyway, I want to ask the experts: Which one do you consider to be the best Fruit regarding 'style'?

I know that this is a subjective question, but I'd want to know what Fruit would be the least boring one, playing dynamically or doing original moves.

Also, if you think that there are different versions that have a very different playing style, I'd be interested (Since, if the style has enough difference, I'd add those versions.)

Thanks in advance.

Fruit 051103 is solid, but not boring.
Fruit 2.3.1 seems to be more aggressive.
Just my opinion.
Both are of similar strength and both are well worth giving a go.

Regards, Graham.

Hi Graham,

Yes, that's my opinion too. I like Fruit 2.3.1 quite a lot and hope Ryan's later versions (stronger yet?) are made available to us. To my surprise, Fruit 2.3.1 performs extremely well in closed, hypermodern positions, such as the Modern Defense, the Pirc, and Mar del Plata King's Indian.

All of my testing is done at ultra-long time controls, so I can't vouch for performance in speed chess.

All the best,
Steve

[Ovyron]

I also made settings for this version and it can play interestingly and strong but also sometimes it totally loses its footing because of some untested search options in it, it can give away whole pieces in winning positions... This is Fruit 2.3.1 Mandarin, the settings I believe I posted somewhere but maybe this version is not so interesting because of its unpredictable behaviour.

That sounds exactly what I'm looking for, since I'll not be using Fruit alone for my analysis, the other engines will help Fruit 2.3.1 Mandarin giving it a sanity check

I just want to be sure if these are the settings I have to use:

Fruit 2.3.1 'Mandarin' 001

Hash = 64 [64 Mb used in the testgames]
NalimovPath = C:\Nalimov
NalimovCache = 8 [Default = 16, *1]
EGBB Path = egbb\ [EGBBs not used, not sure if it works]
EGBB Cache = 16
BookFile = book.bin
Time Allocation = 110 [Default = 100]
EGTB = true
Verification Search = Always
Quiescence Checks = 2
Quiescence Checks PV = 2
Pruning = Normal [Default, I could see no difference using Aggressive]
Use Aspiration search = true [Default = false]
Use Fast Eval = false [Default = true, *2]
PPExt = true [Default = false]
Extend Checks = true [Default = false]
Use Search Focus = true
Focus Depth = 2 [Default = 1]
Search Focus Ext = false
Round Eval = false
Play Style = Gambit [Default = Normal, *3]
Pawn Shielding Hard = 100
Pawn Shielding Soft = 100
Knight Tropism = 100
Queen Tropism = 100
King Center Endgame = 12
King Sideline Penalty = false
Pawn Opening = 80
Pawn Endgame = 90
Knight Value = 325
Bishop Value = 325
Rook Value = 500
Queen Value = 975
Use PPP = true
PPP Level = 15
Start Max PP Level = 140
Pawn Protected PP Level = 30
Pawn Duo PP Level = 30
Rook Behind PP Level = 30
Rook Behind Opp PP Level = 30
King Attack PP Level = 5
King Defend PP Level = 20
Pawn Duo = true [Default = false]
Pawn Duo Weight = 3 [Default = 2]
Pawn Duo Weight (Endgame) = 1
Pawn Duo File a+b or g+h = 2 [Default = 1]
Pawn Duo File b+c or f+g = 2
Pawn Duo File c+d or e+f= 4 [Default = 3]
Pawn Duo File d+e= 5 [Default = 4]
Pawn Duo File a+b or g+h (Endgame) = 4
Pawn Duo File b+c or f+g (Endgame) = 4
Pawn Duo File c+d or e+f (Endgame) = 4
Pawn Duo File d+e (Endgame) = 4
Pawn Duo Rank 2 = 0
Pawn Duo Rank 3 = 0
Pawn Duo Rank 4 = 4
Pawn Duo Rank 5 = 5
Pawn Duo Rank 6 = 6
Pawn Duo Rank 7 = 7
Use Knight in Hole Bonus = true
Use Bishop in Hole Bonus = false
Use Bad Bishop = false
Use Queen in Hole Bonus = false
BISHOP PAIR VS NO MINORS = 50
Use piece combos = true
QB WORSE THAN QN PENALTY = 10
RB BETTER THAN RN BONUS = 10
QRB BETTER THAN QRN BONUS = 10
B BETTER THAN N BONUS = 10
Rook Attack = 7
Pieces over queen bonus = 0
Rook over Knight endgame bonus = 0
Piece Pawn Score Adjustment = false
Contempt Factor = 1 [Default = 0]

Also, I think I'll use it under Chesspartner.

Thanks everyone for replying!

[Eelco de Groot]

Hi Ulysses,

Ah you found that post Yes, those were the settings for Fruit Mandarin as used under ChessPartner. It would be nice if you tried it. But to be honest I can't make out what is going on really when using the options, it could also be some interaction with the GUI maybe, but it seems totally unpredictable no matter what I change... For instance I just tried a version in the Shredder GUI with the Quiescence checks back to normal, and trying to cut down EGTB searches in Blitz. Ryan has said Fruit 2.3.1 is not meant for Blitz, but you have to do something to test it right? Now this version still has lots of the other options different from default but I expect to see some different behaviour at least related to the new settings, but I just get phantom mate scores and somewhere search depths of one ply which totally kills the game of course. I just can't make any sense out of it

The Mandarin 001 is relatively safe I believe, don't know why, to be honest I was hoping Ryan could make a more bugfree version of 2.3.1 also for these search options. Maybe there is some bugs in the aspiration search but it can't explain it all. Sigh... Oh well, it really still was a lot of fun testing this, just difficult to make progress in trying to understand what is going on

I just stopped testing then, hoping to hear whether a new version had maybe some bugs fixed by Ryan...

Maybe for analysis all this won't hurt, and maybe the default version works much better like Steve Ham has said! I have not made any comparisons. Maybe one day we will see something more of the 2.3.2 or 2.3.3 versions! I hear that 2.3.4 tested by Daniel is even multiprocessor capable

Best,
Eelco

[Ovyron]

I'm looking forward for the new versions of Fruit that seem to be stronger than Rybka BETA, but this will do meanwhile

[Tony Thomas]

I'm looking forward for the new versions of Fruit that seem to be stronger than Rybka BETA, but this will do meanwhile

How about we roll the fruit down a hill to see which one will land on the fish down at the stream and kill the fish. I pick Watermelon, Jack Fruit and a Giant mutated Tomato you pick yours.