How many engines consider this positional sacrifice

[ozziejoe]

1 d5!?

[d]r1bq1rk1/p3nppp/1p2p3/8/3P4/1QN2N2/PP2RPPP/R5K1 w - - 0 0[d]

This position is considered in Silman's book, reassess your chess. The white d pawn is terrible and the black bishop is about to get real active. So white sacs the pawn, and in exchange gets a shletered spot for his knight on d4, and takes away some of bishops scope.

This is one of those positional sacs that is fairly rare for engines to play. Rybka sees it as a top 3 option , being only -.08 off the best option

However, other engines don't consider it too viable: The following Engines do not see it as a top 6 moves after 2 minutes of processing (on a good core duo)


Ruffian
Fruit 05/11/03
Shredder 10
Fritz9
spike 1.2 turin

Does hiarcs see it? Zappa? Any other engine place it as a reasonable option (within -.10 of what it considers best, and/0r in top 3 moves)

best
J

[MirceaH]

Hello,

Fruit 2.4 mp beta B 64bit on two cores sees d5 in a reasonable horizon at depth 16 in 1:12 minutes and sees it as best choice at depth 17, in 2:04 minutes.

Regards,
Mircea

[Ignacio]

Zappa Mexico II on a quad sees d5 as best move in 31 seconds.
FEN: r1bq1rk1/p3nppp/1p2p3/8/3P4/1QN2N2/PP2RPPP/R5K1 w - - 0 1

Zappa Mexico II:
9/24 00:01 385.693 884.617 +0,08 Ra1d1 Bc8b7 Nf3e5 Ne7d5 Nc3xd5 Bb7xd5 Qb3a3 f7f6
9/24 00:01 473.003 866.306 +0,08 Ra1d1 Bc8b7 Nf3e5 Ne7d5 Nc3xd5 Bb7xd5 Qb3a3
10/28 00:01 727.997 933.329 -0,30 Ra1d1 Bc8b7 Nf3e5 Ne7d5 f2f3 Nd5f4 Re2c2 f7f6
10/29 00:02 1.240.184 1.046.569 -0,19 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 e6xd5 Re2e5 Bc8e6 Nf3g5 Qd8d6
10/32 00:02 1.825.252 1.073.678 -0,19 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 e6xd5 Re2e5 Bc8e6 Nf3g5
11/32 00:04 3.663.545 1.082.288 -0,29 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 e6xd5 Ra1e1 Bc8e6 Nf3d4 Qd8f6 Qb3a4 Rf8e8 Nd4xe6 Re8xe6
11/32 00:05 5.129.656 1.107.200 -0,22 Nf3e5 Bc8b7 Qb3a4 Ne7d5 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 f2f3 Ra8c8
11/32 00:06 6.196.745 1.131.826 -0,22 Nf3e5 Bc8b7 Qb3a4 Ne7d5 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 f2f3 Ra8c8
12/33 00:07 7.718.756 1.137.453 -0,16 Nf3e5 Bc8b7 Ra1d1 Ra8c8 Re2e1 Ne7d5 Qb3a3 Nd5f4 g2g3
12/33 00:08 8.803.156 1.151.643 -0,16 Nf3e5 Bc8b7 Ra1d1 Ra8c8 Re2e1 Ne7d5 Qb3a3 Nd5f4 g2g3
13/37 00:11 12.164.403 1.160.393 -0,24 Nf3e5 Bc8b7 Ra1d1 Ne7d5 Re2e1 Nd5f4 g2g3 Nf4h3+ Kg1f1 Qd8f6 f2f4
13/37 00:14 16.045.363 1.193.230 -0,24 Nf3e5 Bc8b7 Ra1d1 Ne7d5 Re2e1 Nd5f4 g2g3 Nf4h3+ Kg1f1 Qd8f6 f2f4
14/37 00:19 22.913.228 1.207.930 -0,31 Nf3e5 Bc8b7 Ra1d1 Ne7d5 Re2e1 Qd8e7 f2f3 Ra8c8 Rd1c1 Nd5f4 g2g3
14/37 00:31 38.178.536 1.246.727 -0,29 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 e6xd5 Ra1e1 Bc8e6 Nf3d4 Qd8f6 Qb3a4 Rf8e8 Nd4xe6 Re8xe6
14/37 00:31 38.178.536 1.246.727 -0,29 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 e6xd5 Ra1e1 Bc8e6 Nf3d4 Qd8f6 Qb3a4 Rf8e8 Nd4xe6 Re8xe6
15/37 00:49 60.103.953 1.243.256 -0,27 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 Qb3xd5 e6xd5 Nf3d4 Bc8a6 Re2e5 f7f6 Re5e7 Rf8e8 Re7d7 Ba6d3 Ra1c1 Ra8c8 Rc1xc8 Re8xc8
15/37 01:01 75.528.934 1.247.835 -0,27 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 Qb3xd5 e6xd5 Nf3d4 Bc8a6 Re2e5 f7f6 Re5e7 Rf8e8 Re7d7 Ba6d3 Ra1c1 Ra8c8 Rc1xc8 Re8xc8
16/37 01:03 77.628.931 1.247.171 -0,27 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 Qb3xd5 e6xd5 Nf3d4 Bc8a6 Re2e5 f7f6 Re5e7 Rf8e8 Re7d7 Ba6d3 Ra1c1 Ra8c8 Rc1xc8 Re8xc8
16/39 01:34 115.811.863 1.236.897 -0,27 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 Qb3xd5 e6xd5 Nf3d4 Bc8a6 Re2e5 f7f6 Re5e7 Rf8e8 Re7d7 Ba6d3 Ra1c1 Ra8c8 Rc1xc8 Re8xc8
17/39 01:56 144.063.540 1.243.406 -0,33 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 Qb3xd5 e6xd5 Nf3d4 Rf8d8 f2f3 Kg8f8 Ra1c1 Bc8a6 Re2e5 Ra8c8 Rc1xc8 Rd8xc8 Kg1f2 Ba6b7
17/46 04:06 302.712.159 1.231.488 -0,33 d4d5 Ne7xd5 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 Qb3xd5 e6xd5 Nf3d4 Rf8d8 f2f3 Kg8f8 Ra1c1 Bc8a6 Re2e5 Ra8c8 Rc1xc8 Rd8xc8 Kg1f2 Ba6b7

Best,
Ignacio.

[rightrook]

Junior 10 finds it in 2 sec. then again in 10 sec. but does not keep it until about 2 or 3 minutes...

It also considered Rc1 and Ne4....etc.

[bob]

1 d5!?

[d]r1bq1rk1/p3nppp/1p2p3/8/3P4/1QN2N2/PP2RPPP/R5K1 w - - 0 0[d]

This position is considered in Silman's book, reassess your chess. The white d pawn is terrible and the black bishop is about to get real active. So white sacs the pawn, and in exchange gets a shletered spot for his knight on d4, and takes away some of bishops scope.

This is one of those positional sacs that is fairly rare for engines to play. Rybka sees it as a top 3 option , being only -.08 off the best option

However, other engines don't consider it too viable: The following Engines do not see it as a top 6 moves after 2 minutes of processing (on a good core duo)


Ruffian
Fruit 05/11/03
Shredder 10
Fritz9
spike 1.2 turin

Does hiarcs see it? Zappa? Any other engine place it as a reasonable option (within -.10 of what it considers best, and/0r in top 3 moves)

best
J

Crafty likes Rc1 with a score of -.35. Score for d5 is exactly the same, but it gets ordered later since root ordering says it drops a pawn...

Probably most programs will consider that move very close to best, and just a few points is all it would take to swing the balance for them.

[Guetti]

Hiarcs 11.2 MP takes two minutes to select d5 as best move, but the scores are close and it is possible that it changes opinion again later.

Score : -0.60
Depth : 17/1
Time : 00:02:20
N/sec : 864634
1. d5 Nxd5 2. Nxd5 Qxd5 3. Qxd5 exd5 4. Re5 f6 5. Rxd5 Bg4 6. Rd4 Bxf3 7. gxf3 Rfd8 8. Rad1 Rxd4 9. Rxd4 Re8 10. Rd7 Re1 11. Kg2

[S.Taylor]

1 d5!?

[d]r1bq1rk1/p3nppp/1p2p3/8/3P4/1QN2N2/PP2RPPP/R5K1 w - - 0 0[d]

This position is considered in Silman's book, reassess your chess. The white d pawn is terrible and the black bishop is about to get real active. So white sacs the pawn, and in exchange gets a shletered spot for his knight on d4, and takes away some of bishops scope.

This is one of those positional sacs that is fairly rare for engines to play. Rybka sees it as a top 3 option , being only -.08 off the best option

However, other engines don't consider it too viable: The following Engines do not see it as a top 6 moves after 2 minutes of processing (on a good core duo)


Ruffian
Fruit 05/11/03
Shredder 10
Fritz9
spike 1.2 turin

Does hiarcs see it? Zappa? Any other engine place it as a reasonable option (within -.10 of what it considers best, and/0r in top 3 moves)

best
J

I think that this position is exactly what I was wondering about a good few years ago, if a very strong computer would see it, being that it looked from Silmans book that it might even be tactically winning, when gone deep enough.

[T Barack]

Hustle 5.01 Uci default setting can find the move in 1:39 with depth 17 while Strelka 2.0b can never find the move.

New game, Blitz:1' Benny
r1bq1rk1/p3nppp/1p2p3/8/3P4/1QN2N2/PP2RPPP/R5K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Hustle 5.01 UCI:

1.Ne4
+- (4.33) Depth: 1 00:00:00
1.Rd1 Nf5
+- (2.46) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rd1 Nd5 2.Ne5
+- (3.51) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rd1 Nd5 2.Ne5 Bb7
+- (2.47) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1.Rd1 Ba6 2.Red2 Nd5 3.Ne5
+- (2.83) Depth: 5 00:00:00
1.Rd1 Ba6 2.Ree1 Nf5 3.d5 Qd6 4.dxe6
+- (2.30) Depth: 6 00:00:00 16kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Nf5 3.Qc4 Qd6 4.Nb5
+- (2.18) Depth: 7 00:00:00 58kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Nf5 3.d5 f6 4.dxe6 fxe5 5.Rxd8 Raxd8 6.Rxe5
+- (2.03) Depth: 8 00:00:00 105kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Ng6 3.f3 Nxe5 4.dxe5 Qe7 5.Qc4 Rad8
? (1.23) Depth: 9 00:00:00 275kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Ng6 3.Nxg6 hxg6 4.d5 Qg5 5.Ne4 Qh5 6.Qc4 Bxd5
? (1.23) Depth: 10 00:00:00 839kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Ng6 3.Nxg6 hxg6 4.d5 Qg5 5.h4 Qf5 6.dxe6 Rac8
? (1.37) Depth: 11 00:00:00 1436kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Ng6 3.Nxg6 Qg5 4.d5 Qxg6 5.Qc4 Rac8 6.Qd4 Qf5 7.dxe6 fxe6
? (0.94) Depth: 12 00:00:02 2859kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Ng6 3.Nxg6 Qg5 4.d5 Qxg6 5.Qc4 Rac8 6.Qd4 Qf5 7.dxe6 fxe6
? (0.94) Depth: 13 00:00:05 6774kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Ng6 3.Nxg6 Qg5 4.d5 Qxg6 5.f4 Rfe8 6.Qc4 Rad8 7.Re5 Qg4
? (0.75) Depth: 14 00:00:12 13567kN
1.Rd1 Bb7 2.Ne5 Nd5 3.Ne4 f6 4.Nc4 Qd7 5.g3 Rac8 6.Ned6 b5 7.Nxb5 Ba6 8.a4 Bxb5 9.axb5
? (0.38) Depth: 15 00:00:45 37863kN
1.d5 Nxd5 2.Nxd5 exd5 3.Rae1 Be6 4.Nd4 Qf6 5.Nc6 g6 6.Ne5 Rac8 7.Qd3 Rfe8 8.g3 Qf5 9.Qd4 Kg7
? (0.37) Depth: 16 00:01:39 159mN

[ozziejoe]

what engine is hustle? is it a derivative of another engine, or is it unique?

best
J

[T Barack]

what engine is hustle? is it a derivative of another engine, or is it unique?

It's temporarily private and only a few ones have it.
The version 5.01 seems to be a derivative experiment of Toga and Strelka(only for verification of the new chess ideas),but the new version Hustle 6 will be a unique engine instead.

best