Let the Humans are superior camp walk the talk

[terminator]

Those who subscribe to the school of thought that GMs are superior to leading programs like Ryka, Hiarcs, Fritz etc in classical play should put their money where their mouth is. I propose the GM-are-superior-camp put up a 1 million dollar prizefund and then face the top program Rybka. To prevent a farce like the ChessBase vs Kasparov/Kramnik matches where the GM would be given a copy of the opening book and program used to prepare in advance, the following should be implemented :-

- unlimited book, unlimited cores, 3-4-5 Tablebases and GM should not be given a copy of the version to play with. He is to prepare as if he was to face Karpov/Anand. Who ever heard of a Kasparov being given Karpov's preparation before a match?
- The pay model of the Hydra vs Adams match is to be used. Payout to the GM only for won games and the draw not a 60/40 percent split. I think Adams got pocket change for just his one draw.
- 2 hours to make 40 moves. 1 hour for the next 20 and 30 minutes to finish. No adjournment.
- No toilet incidents - GM must be metal detected.
- No Bonzo the Clown theatrics like Rybka playing without a knight/pawn or a 3 move opening book.

[Matthias Gemuh]

Those who subscribe to the school of thought that GMs are superior to leading programs like Ryka, Hiarcs, Fritz etc in classical play should put their money where their mouth is. I propose the GM-are-superior-camp put up a 1 million dollar prizefund and then face the top program Rybka. To prevent a farce like the ChessBase vs Kasparov/Kramnik matches where the GM would be given a copy of the opening book and program used to prepare in advance, the following should be implemented :-

- unlimited book, unlimited cores, 3-4-5 Tablebases and GM should not be given a copy of the version to play with. He is to prepare as if he was to face Karpov/Anand. Who ever heard of a Kasparov being given Karpov's preparation before a match?
- The pay model of the Hydra vs Adams match is to be used. Payout to the GM only for won games and the draw not a 60/40 percent split. I think Adams got pocket change for just his one draw.
- 2 hours to make 40 moves. 1 hour for the next 20 and 30 minutes to finish. No adjournment.
- No toilet incidents - GM must be metal detected.
- No Bonzo the Clown theatrics like Rybka playing without a knight/pawn or a 3 move opening book.

Even with such unethical handicapping of the programs, the GMs could not prove their superiority. Now top engines are 200 Elo stronger and hardware has made a quantum leap ahead.

The result is that GMs only accept to confront engines if the GMs are allowed to capture a pawn and return to safety before the game starts.
When shall engines have to start a rook down ?

Matthias.

[fern]

Hahahaha, great. But I am afraid nobody will put that million....
You know, according to some gurus, GM's are superior and only lose due to tactical mistakes, tiredness, boringness, forgetfulness, etc, that is, they are superior any time IF only they can subtract the core of chess playing.
I am, too.
I lose every game to top programs, but you should know that if not for my errors, mistakes, tactical shots, etc, I see lot more in the field of chess metaphysics.

Fernando

[terminator]

Hahahaha, great. But I am afraid nobody will put that million....
You know, according to some gurus, GM's are superior and only lose due to tactical mistakes, tiredness, boringness, forgetfulness, etc, that is, they are superior any time IF only they can subtract the core of chess playing.
I am, too.
I lose every game to top programs, but you should know that if not for my errors, mistakes, tactical shots, etc, I see lot more in the field of chess metaphysics.

Fernando

I'm sick of hearing only talk. Me and other millions of chess fans want to see those who are talking the talk, walking the talk i.e. they put money on the table. Anand or Kramnik would scream very loudly if he faced an unleashed Deep Rybka.

[terminator]

Even with such unethical handicapping of the programs, the GMs could not prove their superiority. Now top engines are 200 Elo stronger and hardware has made a quantum leap ahead.

The result is that GMs only accept to confront engines if the GMs are allowed to capture a pawn and return to safety before the game starts.
When shall engines have to start a rook down ?

Matthias.

Its illegal for GM to have to need a pawn or Knight. We want to see the "superiority" if they can face Rybka like a man.

[Bill Rogers]

In the games between Karpov vs Kasparov, both men had access to hundreds of games that the other had played over the years. What ever made you think they went into the games blind?
This is a common practice with all chess champions and aspiring chess players.
Bill

[Matthias Gemuh]

In the games between Karpov vs Kasparov, both men had access to hundreds of games that the other had played over the years. What ever made you think they went into the games blind?
This is a common practice with all chess champions and aspiring chess players.
Bill

Hi Bill,
there is a big difference !

Fritz's book indicated by the weights the specific lines Fritz would prefer.
Kramnik had 2 months to find refutations and otherwise prepare to face specifically these lines in the match.
Furthermore Kramnik could see from the weights how Fritz would respond to his own intended opening moves.

The scenario is not comparable with Karpov vs Kasparov using databases for preparation.

Kramnik should not have been given the specific book Fritz would use, with weights in it.

Matthias

[Dirt]

In the games between Karpov vs Kasparov, both men had access to hundreds of games that the other had played over the years. What ever made you think they went into the games blind?
This is a common practice with all chess champions and aspiring chess players.
Bill

I agree that having the engine be an almost complete unknown, as in the Deep Blue match, is unfair. Perhaps a set of games could be played against a variety of strong computer opponents and the games provided to the GM a month before the match started. Unfortunately, I fear there are some practical difficulties with this idea.

[terminator]

In the games between Karpov vs Kasparov, both men had access to hundreds of games that the other had played over the years. What ever made you think they went into the games blind?
This is a common practice with all chess champions and aspiring chess players.
Bill

Yes they had the past games played but not the future opening preparation. Having the Fritz opening book with all its weights is a dead giveaway because it has all the weights. They should have had a general copy of Fritz from a bookstore like that available to the public. In any case there are many games that Fritz/Rybka have played online that are available so its not as if they are going into the games stone cold. It would be stupidity if when going into the World Computer Chess Championship to be asked to give your opening book and program copy to opponents.

[Uri Blass]

Those who subscribe to the school of thought that GMs are superior to leading programs like Ryka, Hiarcs, Fritz etc in classical play should put their money where their mouth is. I propose the GM-are-superior-camp put up a 1 million dollar prizefund and then face the top program Rybka. To prevent a farce like the ChessBase vs Kasparov/Kramnik matches where the GM would be given a copy of the opening book and program used to prepare in advance, the following should be implemented :-

- unlimited book, unlimited cores, 3-4-5 Tablebases and GM should not be given a copy of the version to play with. He is to prepare as if he was to face Karpov/Anand. Who ever heard of a Kasparov being given Karpov's preparation before a match?
- The pay model of the Hydra vs Adams match is to be used. Payout to the GM only for won games and the draw not a 60/40 percent split. I think Adams got pocket change for just his one draw.
- 2 hours to make 40 moves. 1 hour for the next 20 and 30 minutes to finish. No adjournment.
- No toilet incidents - GM must be metal detected.
- No Bonzo the Clown theatrics like Rybka playing without a knight/pawn or a 3 move opening book.

Even with such unethical handicapping of the programs, the GMs could not prove their superiority. Now top engines are 200 Elo stronger and hardware has made a quantum leap ahead.

The result is that GMs only accept to confront engines if the GMs are allowed to capture a pawn and return to safety before the game starts.
When shall engines have to start a rook down ?

Matthias.

Never.

Rook is too much and even only a knight is too much handicap today for FM's as was proved in the last match of rybka with that handicap.

Uri