Test position: too tough

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glorfindel

Test position: too tough

Post by glorfindel »

This position is not too difficult for an expert human to solve in, say, half an hour if he or she has some experience solving studies.

But my engines could not solve it, at least not as fast as myself. I already knew that Rybka would never solve it but even the other engines seem too materialistic to understand that white is winning.

V. Smyslov, 1936
[d] k7/p7/P5Pp/K4P1P/3p3P/3P4/ppBN1b2/8 w - - 0 1

Edit: Maybe one should play the first three moves on the board, which the programs find quickly, and let the engine think from there. But I still doubt they would find the star move.
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swami
Posts: 6662
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: Test position: too tough

Post by swami »

Analysis by bright-0.3a:

Code: Select all

1.Nf1 a1Q+ 2.Kb4 b1Q+ 3.Bxb1 Qxb1+ 4.Kc5 Qxf1 
  -+  (-6.54)   Depth: 1/12   00:00:00
1.Nb3 a1Q+ 2.Kb4 b1Q 3.Bxb1 Qxb1 
  -+  (-3.51)   Depth: 1/12   00:00:00
1.Nf3 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 b1Q+ 3.Bxb1 Qxb1+ 4.Kc4 
  -+  (-3.30)   Depth: 1/12   00:00:00
1.Ne4 Be1+ 2.Ka4 a1Q+ 3.Kb3 b1Q+ 4.Bxb1 Qxb1+ 5.Kc4 
  -+  (-3.21)   Depth: 1/13   00:00:00
1.Ba4 a1Q 
  -+  (-2.99)   Depth: 1/13   00:00:00
1.g7 a1Q+ 2.Kb4 
  -+  (-1.79)   Depth: 1/13   00:00:00
1.f6 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bxh4 
  -/+  (-1.38)   Depth: 1/13   00:00:00
1.f6 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bxh4 
  -/+  (-1.38)   Depth: 2/13   00:00:00
1.f6 a1Q+ 2.Kb4 b1Q+ 3.Nxb1 Qb2+ 4.Bb3 Qxb1 
  -+  (-1.57)   Depth: 3/13   00:00:00
1.f6 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 b1Q+ 3.Bxb1 Qb2+ 4.Kc4 Qxd2 
  -+  (-1.71)   Depth: 4/14   00:00:00
1.g7 a1Q+ 2.Kb4 Qg1 3.f6 Bxh4 
  -+  (-1.48)   Depth: 4/15   00:00:00
1.g7 a1Q+ 2.Kb4 Qg1 3.f6 Kb8 4.Bb3 
  -+  (-1.43)   Depth: 5/20   00:00:00
1.g7 a1Q+ 2.Kb4 Qg1 3.f6 Kb8 4.Bb3 
  -+  (-1.43)   Depth: 6/20   00:00:00  15kN
1.g7 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Qg1 3.f6 Bxh4 4.Bb3 Qg5+ 5.Kc4 
  -/+  (-1.18)   Depth: 7/22   00:00:00  36kN
1.g7 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Qg1 3.f6 Be3 4.Nc4 b1Q+ 5.Bxb1 Qxb1+ 6.Kc6 
  -/+  (-1.09)   Depth: 8/26   00:00:00  59kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bxh4 3.g7 Bd8 4.g8Q Qa5+ 5.Kc4 Qc3+ 6.Kd5 
  +-  (3.66)   Depth: 8/26   00:00:00  86kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bxh4 3.g7 Bd8 4.g8Q Qa5+ 5.Kc4 Qxa6+ 6.Kxd4 Qf6+ 7.Kc4 
  +-  (3.89)   Depth: 9/26   00:00:00  99kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bxh4 3.g7 Bd8 4.g8Q Qa5+ 5.Kc4 Qxa6+ 6.Kxd4 Qf6+ 7.Kc4 Kb7 8.d4 
  +-  (3.94)   Depth: 10/28   00:00:01  133kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bxh4 3.g7 Bd8 4.g8Q Qa5+ 5.Kc4 Qxa6+ 6.Kxd4 Qc8 7.Qd5+ Kb8 8.Nc4 Bf6+ 9.Ke4 
  +-  (3.90)   Depth: 11/33   00:00:01  202kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bxh4 3.g7 Bd8 4.g8Q Qa5+ 5.Kc4 Qxa6+ 6.Kxd4 Qc8 7.Qd5+ Kb8 8.Nc4 Bf6+ 9.Ke4 
  +-  (3.90)   Depth: 12/35   00:00:01  355kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Qa3 3.g7 Qd6 4.g8Q+ Qb8+ 5.Qxb8+ Kxb8 6.Nc4 Kc7 7.Nxb2 Bxh4 8.Kc5 Kd7 9.Nc4 Bf6 10.Bc2 
  +-  (5.44)   Depth: 13/43   00:00:01  1543kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Qa3 3.g7 Qd6 4.g8Q+ Qb8+ 5.Qxb8+ Kxb8 6.Nc4 Kc7 7.Nxb2 Bxh4 8.Kc5 Kd7 9.Nc4 Bf6 10.Bc2 
  +-  (5.44)   Depth: 14/43   00:00:01  1956kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.f6 Qa3 5.Nc4 Qc3 6.f7 Qe1 7.Ba2 b1Q+ 8.Bxb1 Qxb1+ 9.Kc5 Qxd3 10.f8Q 
  +-  (3.63)   Depth: 15/43   00:00:01  4121kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.f6 Qa3 5.Nc4 Qc3 6.f7 Qe1 7.Ba2 b1Q+ 8.Bxb1 Qxb1+ 9.Kc5 Qxd3 10.f8Q 
  +-  (3.63)   Depth: 16/48   00:00:02  9777kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.f6 Qa3 5.Nc4 Qb3+ 6.Kc5 Qa4 7.Ba2 Qe8 8.Nxb2 Qc8+ 9.Kxd4 Qg4+ 10.Kc5 Qc8+ 11.Kb5 Qf5+ 12.Ka4 
  +-  (1.64)   Depth: 17/50   00:00:04  21073kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.f6 Qa3 5.Nc4 Qb3+ 6.Kc5 Qa4 7.Ba2 b1Q 8.Bxb1 Qd7 9.Ba2 Qf7 10.Bb3 Bg3 11.Nd2 
  +/-  (1.25)   Depth: 18/52   00:00:07  39561kN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.f6 Qa3 5.Nc4 Qb3+ 6.Kc5 Qa4 7.Ba2 b1Q 8.Bxb1 Qd7 9.Ba2 Qf7 10.Bb3 Bg3 11.Nd2 Bd6+ 12.Kc6 Qc7+ 13.Kd5 Qf7+ 14.Ke4 
  +/-  (1.18)   Depth: 19/58   00:00:20  102mN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.f6 Qa3 5.Nc4 Qb3+ 6.Kc5 Qa4 7.Ba2 Qe8 8.Nxb2 Qc8+ 9.Kxd4 Qg4+ 10.Kc5 Qc8+ 11.Kb5 Qd7+ 12.Kb4 Qd6+ 13.Kb3 Qb6+ 14.Kc2 Qf2+ 15.Kd1 
  +/-  (1.07)   Depth: 20/60   00:00:47  245mN
1.Bb1 a1Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.f6 Qa3 5.Nc4 Qb3+ 6.Kc5 Qa4 7.Ba2 b1Q 8.Bxb1 Qd7 9.Ba2 Qe6 10.Bb3 Bg3 11.Bd1 Bxh4 12.Bf3+ Kb8 13.Bd5 
  +/=  (0.40)   Depth: 21/64   00:01:45  552mN
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12792
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Test position: too tough

Post by Dann Corbit »

glorfindel wrote:This position is not too difficult for an expert human to solve in, say, half an hour if he or she has some experience solving studies.

But my engines could not solve it, at least not as fast as myself. I already knew that Rybka would never solve it but even the other engines seem too materialistic to understand that white is winning.

V. Smyslov, 1936
[d] k7/p7/P5Pp/K4P1P/3p3P/3P4/ppBN1b2/8 w - - 0 1

Edit: Maybe one should play the first three moves on the board, which the programs find quickly, and let the engine think from there. But I still doubt they would find the star move.
Rybka quickly sees a rook advantage, but then trails away to a draw score:

Code: Select all

Analysis from Q:\epd\sub\smyslov.epd   
10/10/2008 1:47:42 PM Level: 1545 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka 3

1) "V. Smyslov, 1936";  
    Avoid move: 
    Best move (Rybka 3): Bc2-b1
    Not found in: 25:45
      2	00:00	         250	256.000	-2.11	g6g7
      3	00:00	         462	473.088	-2.07	g6g7
      4+	00:00	         569	582.656	-1.87	g6g7
      4	00:00	         687	703.488	-1.80	g6g7
      5+	00:00	       1.189	1.217.536	-1.60	g6g7
      5	00:00	       1.471	1.506.304	-1.45	g6g7 a2a1Q+
      6	00:00	       2.588	2.650.112	-1.53	g6g7 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Qa1g1 f5f6 Bf2e3
      7+	00:00	       3.957	238.351	-1.33	g6g7
      7	00:00	       4.561	274.733	-1.31	g6g7 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Qa1g1 f5f6 Bf2e3 Nd2b1 Qg1g4
      8+	00:00	       8.536	273.152	-1.11	g6g7
      8+	00:00	       9.527	304.864	-0.91	g6g7
      8+	00:00	      10.678	227.797	-0.51	g6g7
      8+	00:00	      19.602	254.081	+0.29	Bc2b1
      8+	00:00	      20.812	224.331	+1.89	Bc2b1
      8	00:00	      45.990	215.040	+4.17	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5
      9	00:00	      48.404	226.327	+4.17	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2xh4 g6g7 Bh4d8 Nd2c4 Ka8b8 g7g8Q
     10+	00:00	      53.624	233.663	+4.37	Bc2b1
     10+	00:00	      54.734	223.297	+4.57	Bc2b1
     10+	00:00	      58.923	226.831	+4.97	Bc2b1
     10	00:00	      74.450	231.722	+5.09	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Qa1a3 g6g7
     11	00:00	      80.258	238.907	+5.09	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Qa1a3 g6g7 Qa3d6 g7g8Q+ Qd6b8+ Qg8xb8+ Ka8xb8 f5f6 Bf2xh4 f6f7 Bh4e7 Nd2c4
     12	00:00	     245.133	292.219	+0.55	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4
     13	00:02	     508.099	273.263	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8g3 Kc5b4 Ka8b8 Kb4a3 Bg3d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Ka3a2 Qd6h2+ Ka2a1 Qh2g1+ Ka1b2
     14	00:02	     531.801	276.850	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8g3 Kc5b4 Ka8b8 Kb4a3 Bg3d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Ka3a2 Qd6h2+ Ka2a1 Qh2g1+ Ka1b2
     15	00:02	     592.497	275.655	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8g3 Kc5b4 Ka8b8 Kb4a3 Bg3d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Ka3a2 Qd6h2+ Ka2a1 Qh2g1+ Ka1b2
     16	00:02	     748.988	276.084	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8g3 Kc5b4 Ka8b8 Kb4a3 Bg3d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Ka3a2 Qd6h2+ Ka2a1 Qh2g1+ Ka1b2
     17	00:03	   1.008.373	273.457	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8g3 Kc5b4 Ka8b8 Kb4a3 Bg3d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Ka3a2 Qd6h2+ Ka2a1 Qh2g1+ Ka1b2
     18	00:05	   1.539.882	274.614	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8g3 Kc5b4 Bg3d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     19	00:08	   2.345.426	271.012	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8g3 Kc5b4 Bg3d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     20	00:14	   3.831.560	268.973	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     21	00:20	   5.449.484	268.734	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     22	00:34	   8.895.912	266.747	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     23	00:59	  15.438.071	264.649	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     24	01:27	  23.435.620	273.233	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     25	02:33	  40.370.150	268.889	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     26	05:19	  84.498.402	270.931	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     27	08:13	 134.625.850	279.524	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
     28	14:48	 242.609.481	279.744	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 Bb1a2 b2b1Q Ba2xb1 Qa4e8 Bb1a2 Qe8e6 Ba2b3 Bb8c7 Kc5b4 Bc7d6+ Nc4xd6 Qe6xd6+ Kb4c4 Qd6xa6+ Kc4b4 Qa6b6+ Kb4a4 Qb6c6+ Ka4a5
   10/10/2008 2:13:32 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:25:45, Rated time: 25:45

0 of 1 matching moves
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12792
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Test position: too tough

Post by Dann Corbit »

This appears to be the original study:

Code: Select all

[Event "t001"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1936.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Smyslov, Vassily"]
[Black "[+0041.65a5a8]"]
[Result "1-0"]
[EventDate "1936.??.??"]
[SetUp "1"]
[PlyCount "17"]
[FEN "k7/p7/P5Pp/K4P1P/3p3P/3P4/ppBN1b2/8 w - - 0 1"]

1.Bb1 a1=Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.g8=B Bf4 5.Bga2 Bxd2 6.f6 Bf4 7.f7 Bd6 8.
Kc6 Bf8 9.Kc7 1-0
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12792
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Test position: too tough

Post by Dann Corbit »

Dann Corbit wrote:This appears to be the original study:

Code: Select all

[Event "t001"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1936.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Smyslov, Vassily"]
[Black "[+0041.65a5a8]"]
[Result "1-0"]
[EventDate "1936.??.??"]
[SetUp "1"]
[PlyCount "17"]
[FEN "k7/p7/P5Pp/K4P1P/3p3P/3P4/ppBN1b2/8 w - - 0 1"]

1.Bb1 a1=Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.g8=B Bf4 5.Bga2 Bxd2 6.f6 Bf4 7.f7 Bd6 8.
Kc6 Bf8 9.Kc7 1-0
The current Rybka can never solve this problem because of this:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=1042

{notice 4.g8=B}
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Tony Thomas

Re: Test position: too tough

Post by Tony Thomas »

Dann Corbit wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:This appears to be the original study:

Code: Select all

[Event "t001"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1936.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Smyslov, Vassily"]
[Black "[+0041.65a5a8]"]
[Result "1-0"]
[EventDate "1936.??.??"]
[SetUp "1"]
[PlyCount "17"]
[FEN "k7/p7/P5Pp/K4P1P/3p3P/3P4/ppBN1b2/8 w - - 0 1"]

1.Bb1 a1=Q+ 2.Kb5 Bg3 3.g7 Bb8 4.g8=B Bf4 5.Bga2 Bxd2 6.f6 Bf4 7.f7 Bd6 8.
Kc6 Bf8 9.Kc7 1-0
The current Rybka can never solve this problem because of this:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=1042

{notice 4.g8=B}
Dan, can you post a postion where promoting to a bishop is better than promoting to a queen? I am a weak chess player and my logic doesnt allow me to think up such a position.
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12792
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Test position: too tough

Post by Dann Corbit »

Zappa does not solve:

Code: Select all

Analysis from Q:\epd\sub\smyslov.epd   
10/10/2008 2:16:25 PM Level: 1545 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Zappa

1) "V. Smyslov, 1936";  
    Avoid move: 
    Best move (Zappa_mexico_x64): Bc2-b1
    Not found in: 25:45
    10/40	00:00	     909.472	2.651.522	+1.27	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Bb8d6+ Kc5xd6 Qb3b8+ Kd6d5 Qb8d8+ Kd5e4 Qd8e8+ Ke4xd4 Qe8e6 Nc4e5
    10/40	00:00	     973.528	2.603.016	+1.27	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Bb8d6+ Kc5xd6 Qb3b8+ Kd6d5 Qb8d8+ Kd5e4 Qd8e8+ Ke4xd4 Qe8e6 Nc4e5
    11/42	00:01	   2.122.266	2.666.163	+3.16	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Bb8d6+ Kc5xd4 Bd6e5+ Kd4e4 Qb3b8 Nc4xe5 Qb8g8 Bb1a2 Qg8h7+ Ne5g6 Ka8b8 f6f7
    11/42	00:01	   2.155.671	2.658.041	+3.16	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Bb8d6+ Kc5xd4 Bd6e5+ Kd4e4 Qb3b8 Nc4xe5 Qb8g8 Bb1a2 Qg8h7+ Ne5g6 Ka8b8 f6f7
    12/44	00:02	   5.412.089	2.668.683	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    12/44	00:02	   6.125.446	2.727.269	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    13/46	00:02	   7.004.520	2.771.872	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    13/46	00:03	   7.598.929	2.799.900	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    14/48	00:03	   9.480.603	2.866.829	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    14/48	00:04	  10.716.035	2.898.576	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    15/50	00:06	  17.846.930	2.986.934	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    15/50	00:07	  20.315.835	3.014.666	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    16/52	00:11	  32.503.200	3.041.662	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    16/52	00:12	  38.377.427	3.067.495	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    17/54	00:18	  55.312.401	3.099.255	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    17/54	00:21	  67.633.933	3.134.829	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    18/56	00:36	 115.060.562	3.197.104	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    18/56	00:44	 141.835.952	3.221.787	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    19/58	01:14	 241.405.840	3.255.071	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    19/58	01:33	 303.588.071	3.248.842	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    20/60	02:32	 503.834.611	3.307.065	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    20/60	03:12	 634.285.702	3.305.879	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    21/62	05:26	1.091.689.909	3.351.199	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    21/62	06:53	1.375.943.956	3.332.108	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    22/64	12:24	2.486.056,156	3.342.250	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
    22/64	15:51	3.173.899,439	3.338.590	 0.00	Bc2b1 a2a1Q+ Ka5b5 Bf2g3 g6g7 Bg3b8 f5f6 Qa1a3 Nd2c4 Qa3b3+ Kb5c5 Qb3a4 f6f7 Qa4d7 g7g8Q Qd7b5+ Kc5xd4 Qb5e5+ Nc4xe5
   10/10/2008 2:42:13 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:25:45, Rated time: 25:45

0 of 1 matching moves
10/10/2008 2:42:13 PM, Total time: 12:25:48 AM
Rated time: 25:45 = 1545 Seconds
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glorfindel

Re: Test position: too tough

Post by glorfindel »

Tony Thomas wrote:Dan, can you post a postion where promoting to a bishop is better than promoting to a queen? I am a weak chess player and my logic doesnt allow me to think up such a position.
[d] kb6/p5P1/P6p/1K3P1P/3p3P/3P4/1p1N4/qB6 w - - 0 4
The position after Black's third move 3...Bb8 is one such position.
4.g8=B!! is the only move to win (and this is why current Rybka will never find the solution).
If 4.g8=Q the only black piece that can move is the Queen (because the Bb8 is pinned) and it becomes a desperado: 4...Qa5+ which leads to stalemate
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glorfindel

Re: Jonny solves?!

Post by glorfindel »

I think Jonny 2.83 solves this and very fast! Even from the initial position.

One problem is how jonny outputs its main line in XBoard, namely c2b1 a2a1 etc., which does not tell us what promotion takes place.

And at some point I saw this crazy line which I could not understand:

Code: Select all

 depth=16 +0.91 c2b1 a2a1 f5f6 f2g3 f5f6 g3b8 g7g8 b8f4 f5f6 f4d2 f5f6 d2f4 f5f6 f4d6 f6f7 a1b1 f7f8 d6f8 c6d7 f8a3 d7e8 a3c5 f7f8  tb=0/0
Nodes: 16410748 NPS: 109404986
But after a minute or so I see:

Code: Select all

 depth=20 +1.33 c2b1 a2a1 a5b5 f2g3 g6g7 g3b8 g7g8 b8e5  tb=0/0
g7g8 is probably g7g8=B, otherwise b8e5 would not be possible next move.

After Black's third move Jonny says

Code: Select all

depth=20 +1.17 g7g8B b8f4 f5f6
It finds the first move immediately but 5.f6 is a mistake.

So maybe Jonny can solve the position, but it cannot tell us clearly.
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12792
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Test position: too tough

Post by Dann Corbit »

[d]1n4b1/PP6/6p1/4p1p1/p5P1/3p2PK/3P4/7k w - - acd 34/58; acn 201830812; acs 67; bm a8=B; ce 0; pv a8=B Be6;

[d]1r6/P6k/7P/6K1/6P1/8/8/8 w - - acd 4/4; acn 108; acs 0; bm axb8=B; ce 32754; pv axb8=B;

This one is my personal favorite, as it includes an underpromotion both to knight and to bishop:
[d]2K5/2Pnk1P1/PP6/8/2b5/2n5/8/8 w - - acd 26/49; acn 465438476; acs 113; bm a7; ce 0; pv a7 Ba6+ b7 Ne4 g8=N+ Ke8 Nf6+ Nexf6 a8=B Ne5 Kb8 Nc6+ Kc8 Ke7;

[d]2r5/kP6/P7/K7/8/8/8/8 w - - acd 4/4; acn 52; acs 0; bm bxc8=B; ce 32746; pv bxc8=B;

[d]3rb2k/2P4p/6pP/p2B1pP1/Pp2pP2/1P2K3/8/8 w - - acd 29/47; acn 569507933; acs 117; bm cxd8=B; ce 32740; pv cxd8=B Bf7 Kd4 Kg8 Bxa5 e3 Bxb4 e2 Bxf7+ Kxf7 a5 e1=Q Bxe1 Ke6 a6 Ke7 a7 Kd7 a8=Q Kc7 Kd5 Kd7 Qb7+ Ke8;

[d]4Q3/Pq4pk/5p1p/5P1K/6PP/8/8/8 w - - acd 21/44; acn 508204727; acs 118; bm a8=B; ce 888; pv a8=B Qb3 Bc6 Qc4 Bd7 Qg8 Qxg8+ Kxg8 Bc6 Kf8 Kg6 h5 gxh5 Kg8;

[d]5r2/6Pk/7P/6K1/8/8/8/8 w - - acd 4/4; acn 20; acs 0; bm gxf8=B; ce 32748; pv gxf8=B;

[d]8/8/8/8/6k1/7p/6pK/5R2 b - - acd 4/4; acn 51; acs 0; bm gxf1=B; ce 32748; pv gxf1=B;

[d]8/8/8/8/7k/7p/6pK/5R2 b - - acd 4/4; acn 21; acs 0; bm gxf1=B; ce 32746; pv gxf1=B;

[d]kb6/2P5/K7/2N5/8/8/8/8 w - - acd 4/4; acn 144; acs 0; bm c8=B; ce 32762; pv c8=B;
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