Is there any engine that plays e4! in this position? Black just played Bc8xNf5 to advance e4 and stop the white attack completely. White is left with useless pair of bishops, and black will be on the attack with a future b5. White is in serious positional trouble.
Miguel
[d]3q1nnk/rr4pp/pp1p1p2/2pPpPP1/2P2P1P/P1QBB3/1P6/2K3RR b - - 0 24 bm e4
Test position
Moderator: Ras
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michiguel
- Posts: 6401
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- Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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LaurenceChen
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:58 am
Re: Test position
I don't see how White's Bishops become useless in this position. After 24. ... e4 25. Bxe4
[d] 3q1nnk/rr4pp/pp1p1p2/2pP1PP1/2P1BP1P/P1Q1B3/1P6/2K3RR b - - 0 25
White has a pawn steam roller with the g and h pawns. How is Black supposed to proceed from the diagram above?
[d] 3q1nnk/rr4pp/pp1p1p2/2pP1PP1/2P1BP1P/P1Q1B3/1P6/2K3RR b - - 0 25
White has a pawn steam roller with the g and h pawns. How is Black supposed to proceed from the diagram above?
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michiguel
- Posts: 6401
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
Re: Test position
White has no attack because h5 is always responded with h6. Because of the presence of the f4 pawn, the bishop has not access to h6 and the Knight can blockade h6 with no problem. g7 is very solid with both rooks on the second line. None of the bishops have any access to the king side. White would wish to play f4 backwards to f2. That is the idea of e4, leave f4 to block white forces.LaurenceChen wrote:I don't see how White's Bishops become useless in this position. After 24. ... e4 25. Bxe4
[d] 3q1nnk/rr4pp/pp1p1p2/2pP1PP1/2P1BP1P/P1Q1B3/1P6/2K3RR b - - 0 25
White has a pawn steam roller with the g and h pawns. How is Black supposed to proceed from the diagram above?
In other words, white cannot open any useful line in the king side whereas for black is a matter of time to make progress in the queen side. Of course, this is not lost for white, but it is easier to play with black (the plan is straightforward). Black has the initiative. The PGN of the game is this (the follow up is certainly not perfect but just illustrates the dangers).
[Event "Midwest Amateur Team Ch."]
[Site "Chicago, IL"]
[Date "2001.02.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Andrews, T."]
[Black "Ballicora, M. A."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E32p"]
[EventDate "2001.02.??"]
1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 O-O 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 b6 7.Bg5 Bb7 8.Nf3
d6 9.Nd2 Nbd7 10.f3 c5 11.e4 e5 12.d5 Qe8 13.Bd3 Kh8 14.Nf1 Ng8 15.g4 f6
16.Be3 Rf7 17.Ng3 Nf8 18.h4 Bc8 19.O-O-O a6 20.Nf5 Qd8 21.Rdg1 Rb7 22.g5
Raa7 23.f4 Bxf5 24.exf5 e4 25.Bxe4 Re7 26.Bc2 Rab7 27.Rg3 b5 28.Rhg1 Nd7
29.h5 h6 30.Bd2 b4 31.axb4 cxb4 32.Qd4 Nc5 33.gxf6 Nxf6 34.Rg6 Re4 35.Qf2
Rxc4 36.Qe2 Nb3+ 37.Kb1 Rxc2 38.Qxa6 Rcc7 39.Be3 Rb8 40.Qd3 Qe8 0-1
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Uri Blass
- Posts: 11008
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
- Location: Tel-Aviv Israel
Re: Test position
In this game white made a positional blunder by 33.gxf6 that make the black knight active.
I doubt if 24...e4 is relatively better than the alternatives and the position may be simply drawn with 24...e4 and without 24...e4
Uri
I doubt if 24...e4 is relatively better than the alternatives and the position may be simply drawn with 24...e4 and without 24...e4
Uri
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michiguel
- Posts: 6401
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
Re: Test position
Yes, gxf6 is a big mistake.Uri Blass wrote:In this game white made a positional blunder by 33.gxf6 that make the black knight active.
I doubt if 24...e4 is relatively better than the alternatives and the position may be simply drawn with 24...e4 and without 24...e4
Uri
However, white is already in clear disadvantage when he played 33. gxf6(?). Black can advance a5 a4 etc. and Nc5 is dominating. White has no attack and can only wait to see what black will do.
Miguel
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Eelco de Groot
- Posts: 4681
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
- Full name: Eelco de Groot
Re: Test position
I left the computer running for a while and in the deep end 24...e4 did come out on top! Although my patience did run out before Blueberry completed plydepth 17 fully in five best mode there is a good chance that it would have stayed first move.michiguel wrote:Is there any engine that plays e4! in this position? Black just played Bc8xNf5 to advance e4 and stop the white attack completely. White is left with useless pair of bishops, and black will be on the attack with a future b5. White is in serious positional trouble.
Miguel
[d]3q1nnk/rr4pp/pp1p1p2/2pPpPP1/2P2P1P/P1QBB3/1P6/2K3RR b - - 0 24 bm e4
Vincent will maybe be interested to note that not every Toga easily reaches 25 plies in a middle game, I could not get to 18 plies in two days... Okay I did not have 24 Dunningtons.. But to compare this number for speed-ups is a completely meaningless exercise and no reason for booking a return flight and not wanting to play against Cluster Toga. Plydepths are not proof of Intel supercomputers! Just joking, I really have no idea why Diep couldn't play in Beijing. But plydepths tell you nothing guys
Eelco
[d]3q1nnk/rr4pp/pp1p1p2/2pPpPP1/2P2P1P/P1QBB3/1P6/2K3RR b - -
Engine: Blueberry Beta 4 DM70 Build 180 (Athlon 2009 MHz, 256 MB)
by F. Letouzey, T. Gaksch, E. de Groot
Code: Select all
13 20:42 -0.29 24...Nd7 25.h5 b5 26.h6 gxh6 27.fxe5 Nxe5
28.g6 Qc8 29.Rh5 bxc4 30.Bxc4 Qe8
31.Be2 Qa4 32.gxh7 Rxh7 33.Qd2 Rab7
34.Bxh6 Nxh6 35.Rxh6 (646.914.688) 512
13 40:54 -0.63 24...b5 25.gxf6 gxf6 26.Rg2 e4 27.Bxe4 Nd7
28.Kb1 Nb6 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Bd2 Nh6
31.Qf3 Nc4 32.Qh5 Rg7 33.Bc3 Rxg2
34.Bxg2 (1.257.189.104) 512
13 30:58 -0.65 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.Bd3 Qe8 27.Bd2 Qh5
28.Kb1 Nd7 29.Ka1 b4 30.axb4 cxb4
31.Qd4 Nc5 32.Bc2 a5 (955.095.419) 512
13 33:25 -0.75 24...Qb8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.h5 h6
28.Kb1 a5 29.Qd2 Rf7 30.Bc2 N8d7
31.Rh4 a4 32.Qd1 Qa8 (1.024.935.982) 512
13 39:30 -0.75 24...Qe8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Be2 a5
28.h5 h6 29.Kb1 Rd7 30.Rh3 Rd6
31.Ka1 a4 32.Rhg3 Ne4 (1.213.905.528) 512Code: Select all
14 48:28 -0.29 24...Nd7 25.h5 b5 26.h6 gxh6 27.fxe5 Nxe5
28.g6 Qc8 29.Rh5 bxc4 30.Bxc4 Qe8
31.Be2 Qa4 32.gxh7 Rxh7 33.Qd2 Rab7
34.Bxh6 Nxh6 35.Rxh6 (1.492.657.290) 519
14 71:06 -0.73 24...b5 25.gxf6 gxf6 26.Rg2 e4 27.Bxe4 Nd7
28.Kb1 Nb6 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Bd2 Qf8
31.Qf3 Nh6 32.Bc3 Nc4 33.Bd3 Qf7
34.Bxc4 bxc4 (2.213.762.862) 519
14 111:55 -0.74 24...Qe8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Rg2 Ra8
28.Re1 N8d7 29.Reg1 Nf8 30.Bg5 N8d7
31.Kb1 a5 32.Bxf6 Nxf6 33.Qd2 Rd8 (3.490.232.812) 519
14 100:22 -0.75 24...Qb8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.h5 h6
28.Kb1 a5 29.Qd2 Rf7 30.Bc2 a4
31.Rh4 N8d7 32.Qd1 Qa8 (3.151.160.883) 519
14 112:13 -0.85 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.h5 h6 27.Bd3 bxc4
28.Bxc4 Qc8 29.Qd3 Rb8 30.Bd2 Nd7
31.Bc3 Nb6 32.b3 a5 33.g6 (3.499.511.405) 519Code: Select all
15 146:47 -0.16 24...Nd7 25.h5 b5 26.h6 gxh6 27.fxe5 Nxe5
28.g6 Qc8 29.Rh5 Qe8 30.Bf4 Rb8
31.Bxe5 Qxe5 32.Qxe5 fxe5 33.cxb5 axb5
34.gxh7 Rxh7 35.Rg6 c4 36.Be4 Rd7 (4.579.983.320) 524
15 281:25 -0.72 24...Qb8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Kb1 h6
28.Bg5 N8h7 29.Rg2 Rf7 30.Be3 Nf8
31.h5 Qd6 32.Qd2 b5 33.Rh4 N8d7
34.Bf2 Nb6 (8.873.361.370) 524
15 238:21 -0.76 24...b5 25.gxf6 gxf6 26.Rg2 e4 27.Bxe4 Nd7
28.Bd2 Nb6 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Qf3 Re7
31.Bc3 Qf8 32.Kb1 Re8 33.Rhg1 Nh6
34.Bd3 c4 (7.611.591.081) 524
15 213:18 -0.77 24...Qe8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Rg2 Re7
28.Kb1 Qb8 29.Bc2 Qd6 30.h5 h6
31.Ba4 b5 32.Bb3 Rab7 33.Ka1 bxc4
34.Qxc4 (6.744.107.144) 524
15 297:45 -0.80 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.h5 h6 27.Bd3 bxc4
28.Bxc4 Qc8 29.Qd3 Rb8 30.Bd2 Nd7
31.Bc3 Nb6 32.b3 a5 33.g6 Ne7 (9.373.707.027) 524Code: Select all
16 316:36 -0.31 24...Nd7 25.h5 b5 26.h6 gxh6 27.fxe5 Nxe5
28.g6 Qc8 29.Rh5 Qe8 30.Bf4 Rb8
31.b3 bxc4 32.Bxc4 Rab7 33.Qg3 Rg7
34.Bxh6 Nxh6 35.Rxh6 (9.946.998.750) 509
16 713:39 -0.59 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.h5 h6 27.Bd3 Nd7
28.b3 Nb6 29.Qa5 bxc4 30.bxc4 Qe8
31.Bd2 Na4 32.Bc2 Nb6 33.Re1 Ne7
34.gxf6 gxf6 35.Bc3 Nxc4
36.Bxf6+ Kh7 (21.823.020.029) 509
16 429:25 -0.70 24...Qb8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Kb1 h6
28.Bg5 N8h7 29.Rg2 Rf7 30.Be3 Nf8
31.h5 a5 32.Bc2 a4 33.Bd3 N8d7
34.Ka1 b5 35.cxb5 Nxd5 (13.232.807.815) 509
16 475:42 -0.70 24...b5 25.gxf6 gxf6 26.Rg2 e4 27.Bxe4 Nd7
28.Bd2 Nb6 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Qf3 Re7
31.Bc3 Qf8 32.Kb1 Re8 33.Bd3 c4
34.Qf2 Ra6 35.Rhg1 (14.645.177.044) 509
16 547:05 -0.72 24...Qe8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Rg2 Re7
28.Kb1 Qb8 29.Qd2 N8d7 30.h5 h6
31.Be2 Qd6 32.Qc1 b5 33.Rd1 Rf7
34.Ka1 Ne4 35.cxb5 axb5 36.Bxb5 Rxf5
37.Bxd7 Rxd7 (16.686.011.514) 509Code: Select all
17 976:24 -0.58 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.h5 h6 27.Bd3 Nd7
28.b3 Nb6 29.Qa5 bxc4 30.bxc4 Qe8
31.Re1 Qd7 32.Re2 Na4 33.Rg1 Rb8
34.Be4 Ne7 35.gxh6 gxh6 (30.153.422.743) 513
17 1014:59-0.63 24...Nd7 25.h5 h6 26.gxh6 Nxh6
27.Rg6 e4 28.Bxe4 b5 29.Bf2 bxc4
30.Qxc4 Nb6 31.Qc2 Qe8 32.Rhg1 Re7
33.Bf3 Qa4 34.Qxa4 Nxa4 35.Re1 Nxf5
36.Rxe7 Rxe7 (31.300.779.642) 513
best move: e5-e4 time: 1311:19.610 min n/s: 479.546 CPU 99.9% n/s(1CPU): 480.026 nodes: 37.726.730.000
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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michiguel
- Posts: 6401
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
Re: Test position
Impressive.Eelco de Groot wrote:I left the computer running for a while and in the deep end 24...e4 did come out on top! Although my patience did run out before Blueberry completed plydepth 17 fully in five best mode there is a good chance that it would have stayed first move.michiguel wrote:Is there any engine that plays e4! in this position? Black just played Bc8xNf5 to advance e4 and stop the white attack completely. White is left with useless pair of bishops, and black will be on the attack with a future b5. White is in serious positional trouble.
Miguel
[d]3q1nnk/rr4pp/pp1p1p2/2pPpPP1/2P2P1P/P1QBB3/1P6/2K3RR b - - 0 24 bm e4
Vincent will maybe be interested to note that not every Toga easily reaches 25 plies in a middle game, I could not get to 18 plies in two days... Okay I did not have 24 Dunningtons.. But to compare this number for speed-ups is a completely meaningless exercise and no reason for booking a return flight and not wanting to play against Cluster Toga. Plydepths are not proof of Intel supercomputers! Just joking, I really have no idea why Diep couldn't play in Beijing. But plydepths tell you nothing guys
Eelco
[d]3q1nnk/rr4pp/pp1p1p2/2pPpPP1/2P2P1P/P1QBB3/1P6/2K3RR b - -
Engine: Blueberry Beta 4 DM70 Build 180 (Athlon 2009 MHz, 256 MB)
by F. Letouzey, T. Gaksch, E. de Groot
_____________________________________________________________________Code: Select all
13 20:42 -0.29 24...Nd7 25.h5 b5 26.h6 gxh6 27.fxe5 Nxe5 28.g6 Qc8 29.Rh5 bxc4 30.Bxc4 Qe8 31.Be2 Qa4 32.gxh7 Rxh7 33.Qd2 Rab7 34.Bxh6 Nxh6 35.Rxh6 (646.914.688) 512 13 40:54 -0.63 24...b5 25.gxf6 gxf6 26.Rg2 e4 27.Bxe4 Nd7 28.Kb1 Nb6 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Bd2 Nh6 31.Qf3 Nc4 32.Qh5 Rg7 33.Bc3 Rxg2 34.Bxg2 (1.257.189.104) 512 13 30:58 -0.65 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.Bd3 Qe8 27.Bd2 Qh5 28.Kb1 Nd7 29.Ka1 b4 30.axb4 cxb4 31.Qd4 Nc5 32.Bc2 a5 (955.095.419) 512 13 33:25 -0.75 24...Qb8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.h5 h6 28.Kb1 a5 29.Qd2 Rf7 30.Bc2 N8d7 31.Rh4 a4 32.Qd1 Qa8 (1.024.935.982) 512 13 39:30 -0.75 24...Qe8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Be2 a5 28.h5 h6 29.Kb1 Rd7 30.Rh3 Rd6 31.Ka1 a4 32.Rhg3 Ne4 (1.213.905.528) 512
_____________________________________________________________________Code: Select all
14 48:28 -0.29 24...Nd7 25.h5 b5 26.h6 gxh6 27.fxe5 Nxe5 28.g6 Qc8 29.Rh5 bxc4 30.Bxc4 Qe8 31.Be2 Qa4 32.gxh7 Rxh7 33.Qd2 Rab7 34.Bxh6 Nxh6 35.Rxh6 (1.492.657.290) 519 14 71:06 -0.73 24...b5 25.gxf6 gxf6 26.Rg2 e4 27.Bxe4 Nd7 28.Kb1 Nb6 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Bd2 Qf8 31.Qf3 Nh6 32.Bc3 Nc4 33.Bd3 Qf7 34.Bxc4 bxc4 (2.213.762.862) 519 14 111:55 -0.74 24...Qe8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Rg2 Ra8 28.Re1 N8d7 29.Reg1 Nf8 30.Bg5 N8d7 31.Kb1 a5 32.Bxf6 Nxf6 33.Qd2 Rd8 (3.490.232.812) 519 14 100:22 -0.75 24...Qb8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.h5 h6 28.Kb1 a5 29.Qd2 Rf7 30.Bc2 a4 31.Rh4 N8d7 32.Qd1 Qa8 (3.151.160.883) 519 14 112:13 -0.85 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.h5 h6 27.Bd3 bxc4 28.Bxc4 Qc8 29.Qd3 Rb8 30.Bd2 Nd7 31.Bc3 Nb6 32.b3 a5 33.g6 (3.499.511.405) 519
_____________________________________________________________________Code: Select all
15 146:47 -0.16 24...Nd7 25.h5 b5 26.h6 gxh6 27.fxe5 Nxe5 28.g6 Qc8 29.Rh5 Qe8 30.Bf4 Rb8 31.Bxe5 Qxe5 32.Qxe5 fxe5 33.cxb5 axb5 34.gxh7 Rxh7 35.Rg6 c4 36.Be4 Rd7 (4.579.983.320) 524 15 281:25 -0.72 24...Qb8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Kb1 h6 28.Bg5 N8h7 29.Rg2 Rf7 30.Be3 Nf8 31.h5 Qd6 32.Qd2 b5 33.Rh4 N8d7 34.Bf2 Nb6 (8.873.361.370) 524 15 238:21 -0.76 24...b5 25.gxf6 gxf6 26.Rg2 e4 27.Bxe4 Nd7 28.Bd2 Nb6 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Qf3 Re7 31.Bc3 Qf8 32.Kb1 Re8 33.Rhg1 Nh6 34.Bd3 c4 (7.611.591.081) 524 15 213:18 -0.77 24...Qe8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Rg2 Re7 28.Kb1 Qb8 29.Bc2 Qd6 30.h5 h6 31.Ba4 b5 32.Bb3 Rab7 33.Ka1 bxc4 34.Qxc4 (6.744.107.144) 524 15 297:45 -0.80 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.h5 h6 27.Bd3 bxc4 28.Bxc4 Qc8 29.Qd3 Rb8 30.Bd2 Nd7 31.Bc3 Nb6 32.b3 a5 33.g6 Ne7 (9.373.707.027) 524
_____________________________________________________________________Code: Select all
16 316:36 -0.31 24...Nd7 25.h5 b5 26.h6 gxh6 27.fxe5 Nxe5 28.g6 Qc8 29.Rh5 Qe8 30.Bf4 Rb8 31.b3 bxc4 32.Bxc4 Rab7 33.Qg3 Rg7 34.Bxh6 Nxh6 35.Rxh6 (9.946.998.750) 509 16 713:39 -0.59 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.h5 h6 27.Bd3 Nd7 28.b3 Nb6 29.Qa5 bxc4 30.bxc4 Qe8 31.Bd2 Na4 32.Bc2 Nb6 33.Re1 Ne7 34.gxf6 gxf6 35.Bc3 Nxc4 36.Bxf6+ Kh7 (21.823.020.029) 509 16 429:25 -0.70 24...Qb8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Kb1 h6 28.Bg5 N8h7 29.Rg2 Rf7 30.Be3 Nf8 31.h5 a5 32.Bc2 a4 33.Bd3 N8d7 34.Ka1 b5 35.cxb5 Nxd5 (13.232.807.815) 509 16 475:42 -0.70 24...b5 25.gxf6 gxf6 26.Rg2 e4 27.Bxe4 Nd7 28.Bd2 Nb6 29.cxb5 axb5 30.Qf3 Re7 31.Bc3 Qf8 32.Kb1 Re8 33.Bd3 c4 34.Qf2 Ra6 35.Rhg1 (14.645.177.044) 509 16 547:05 -0.72 24...Qe8 25.gxf6 Nxf6 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.Rg2 Re7 28.Kb1 Qb8 29.Qd2 N8d7 30.h5 h6 31.Be2 Qd6 32.Qc1 b5 33.Rd1 Rf7 34.Ka1 Ne4 35.cxb5 axb5 36.Bxb5 Rxf5 37.Bxd7 Rxd7 (16.686.011.514) 509
Code: Select all
17 976:24 -0.58 24...e4 25.Bxe4 b5 26.h5 h6 27.Bd3 Nd7 28.b3 Nb6 29.Qa5 bxc4 30.bxc4 Qe8 31.Re1 Qd7 32.Re2 Na4 33.Rg1 Rb8 34.Be4 Ne7 35.gxh6 gxh6 (30.153.422.743) 513 17 1014:59-0.63 24...Nd7 25.h5 h6 26.gxh6 Nxh6 27.Rg6 e4 28.Bxe4 b5 29.Bf2 bxc4 30.Qxc4 Nb6 31.Qc2 Qe8 32.Rhg1 Re7 33.Bf3 Qa4 34.Qxa4 Nxa4 35.Re1 Nxf5 36.Rxe7 Rxe7 (31.300.779.642) 513 best move: e5-e4 time: 1311:19.610 min n/s: 479.546 CPU 99.9% n/s(1CPU): 480.026 nodes: 37.726.730.000
At those depths, deep tactics translate into defensive positional sacrifices. Even when e4 is not the first option, in the PV, the engine chooses e4 to play a safe h6 in response to h5.
Miguel