the worlds ugliest novelty

[ozziejoe]

against the grob, rybka 3.0 prefers a novelty, which can lead to a truely grotesque looking position for black. check it out

1. g4, d5; 2 bg2, nc6 !? (novelty)...

If white playes c4 (quite normal in the grob), and black plays best moves, black can end up witht this position (3 c4, dxc4, 4; g2xc6, bxc6.).

rybka thinks black is doing really well (evaluation < -.50))

[d]r1bqkbnr/p1p1pppp/2p5/8/2p3P1/8/PP1PPP1P/RNBQK1NR w KQkq -[d]


do you agree? What do other engines think?

best
J

[glorfindel]

I think it is a great idea for Black.
Of course, the Grob is a bad opening and Black may have a lot of good moves at his disposal. But this has the element of surprise because white is likely not to have studied it, so Black can also play it without studying. I would certainly play it, if Rybka says it is a decent line.
I would not call it ugly, it seems rather creative and undogmatic.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

It's not only ugly,it's also dangeours with these three pawns on the C file,I personaly prefer white's position....

[Tord Romstad]

against the grob, rybka 3.0 prefers a novelty, which can lead to a truely grotesque looking position for black. check it out

1. g4, d5; 2 bg2, nc6 !? (novelty)...

If white playes c4 (quite normal in the grob), and black plays best moves, black can end up witht this position (3 c4, dxc4, 4; g2xc6, bxc6.).

rybka thinks black is doing really well (evaluation < -.50))

[d]r1bqkbnr/p1p1pppp/2p5/8/2p3P1/8/PP1PPP1P/RNBQK1NR w KQkq -[d]


do you agree?

I think black has a big advantage, and that 4. Bxc6 is a serious mistake. Black has an extra pawn and the bishop pair, and is ahead in development. White was a very weak kingside, no safe place for the king, and difficulties developing the queenside. He also faces the immediate problem that the g4 pawn is hanging. If he tries to protect it by 5. h3, 5... h5 looks good for black. If he plays 5. e3 in order to protect the pawn with the queen, the queen is no longer free to go to c2 or a4 and capture black's frontmost c pawn. While black's pawn remains on c4, white can't develop the queenside bishop and rook, and capturing the pawn will probably cost at least one or two tempi.

Glaurung also thinks black is about half a pawn up, by the way: -0.43 at depth 18. Personally I would evaluate black's advantage as closer to one pawn than half a pawn.

Tord

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

against the grob, rybka 3.0 prefers a novelty, which can lead to a truely grotesque looking position for black. check it out

1. g4, d5; 2 bg2, nc6 !? (novelty)...

If white playes c4 (quite normal in the grob), and black plays best moves, black can end up witht this position (3 c4, dxc4, 4; g2xc6, bxc6.).

rybka thinks black is doing really well (evaluation < -.50))

[d]r1bqkbnr/p1p1pppp/2p5/8/2p3P1/8/PP1PPP1P/RNBQK1NR w KQkq -[d]


do you agree?

I think black has a big advantage, and that 4. Bxc6 is a serious mistake. Black has an extra pawn and the bishop pair, and is ahead in development. White was a very weak kingside, no safe place for the king, and difficulties developing the queenside. He also faces the immediate problem that the g4 pawn is hanging. If he tries to protect it by 5. h3, 5... h5 looks good for black. If he plays 5. e3 in order to protect the pawn with the queen, the queen is no longer free to go to c2 or a4 and capture black's frontmost c pawn. While black's pawn remains on c4, white can't develop the queenside bishop and rook, and capturing the pawn will probably cost at least one or two tempi.

Glaurung also thinks black is about half a pawn up, by the way: -0.43 at depth 18. Personally I would evaluate black's advantage as closer to one pawn than half a pawn.

Tord

Playing the e3 is totaly safe for white and I don't see any developed black pieces btw,so the position is questionable to say the least....

[Vinvin]

I prefere black position : white square bishop and the h1-a8 diag open and 1 pawn up (but not for long )

[Tord Romstad]

against the grob, rybka 3.0 prefers a novelty, which can lead to a truely grotesque looking position for black. check it out

1. g4, d5; 2 bg2, nc6 !? (novelty)...

If white playes c4 (quite normal in the grob), and black plays best moves, black can end up witht this position (3 c4, dxc4, 4; g2xc6, bxc6.).

rybka thinks black is doing really well (evaluation < -.50))

[d]r1bqkbnr/p1p1pppp/2p5/8/2p3P1/8/PP1PPP1P/RNBQK1NR w KQkq -[d]


do you agree?

I think black has a big advantage, and that 4. Bxc6 is a serious mistake. Black has an extra pawn and the bishop pair, and is ahead in development. White was a very weak kingside, no safe place for the king, and difficulties developing the queenside. He also faces the immediate problem that the g4 pawn is hanging. If he tries to protect it by 5. h3, 5... h5 looks good for black. If he plays 5. e3 in order to protect the pawn with the queen, the queen is no longer free to go to c2 or a4 and capture black's frontmost c pawn. While black's pawn remains on c4, white can't develop the queenside bishop and rook, and capturing the pawn will probably cost at least one or two tempi.

Glaurung also thinks black is about half a pawn up, by the way: -0.43 at depth 18. Personally I would evaluate black's advantage as closer to one pawn than half a pawn.

Tord

Playing the e3 is totaly safe for white

Totaly safe? It weakens white's white squares further, makes it more difficult to win back the pawn on c4 (and white has to win back this pawn in order to develop the queenside), and white's kingside knight can't move to e2 or f3 because it will leave the g4 pawn hanging. I think h3 and Qa4 are better tries for white than e3.

and I don't see any developed black pieces btw,

The light-squared bishop and queen are already very active and well placed, and the remaining pieces can be brought into play rapidly and easily. White does not have a single actively placed piece, and must invest one tempo in defending the g4 pawn, and at least a couple of more tempi in recapturing the c4 pawn.

At depth 24, Glaurung's score has dropped to -0.70 for white, which is more in line with what I think.

so the position is questionable to say the least....

It looks very clear to me. Perhaps someone should run a theme tournament between a few engines from this position and check the results?

Tord

[Tord Romstad]

Playing the e3 is totaly safe for white

Totaly safe? It weakens white's white squares further, makes it more difficult to win back the pawn on c4 (and white has to win back this pawn in order to develop the queenside), and white's kingside knight can't move to e2 or f3 because it will leave the g4 pawn hanging.

Moreover, white faces some very serious problems after 1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Nc6 3. c4 dxc4 4. Bxc6+? bxc6 5. e3? Nf6:

[d]r1bqkb1r/p1p1pppp/2p2n2/8/2p3P1/4P3/PP1P1P1P/RNBQK1NR w KQkq -

Once again the g4 pawn is hanging, and 6. g5 loses because of 6... Qd5. If white tries 6. h3, black again plays 6... h5, and 7. g5 is once again refuted by 7... Qd5.

I think white is almost lost after 5. e3 Nf6.

Tord

[JVMerlino]

Not sure how much of a novelty this is. Chessmaster 9000's database (relatively small nowadays at 500K games), shows this one game in which 2...Nc6 was played and Black went on to win (although he didn't play 3...dxc4).

[Site "Agard"]
[Date "1976.09.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Kadas, G"]
[Black "Sapi, Laszlo"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]

1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Nc6 3.c4 d4 4.h3 e5 5.d3 Bd6 6.a3 a5 7.b3 Nge7 8.Nd2 Ng6
9.Ne4 Be7 10.Ng3 Nh4 11.Be4 g6 12.Bh6 Rg8 13.Nf3 Be6 14.Bxc6+ bxc6
15.Nxe5 Ra6 16.Nf3 c5 17.Nxh4 Bxh4 18.Bf4 g5 19.Bc1 Bxg3 20.fxg3 Qd6
21.Rg1 Rg6 22.Kd2 a4 23.Rb1 Rb6 24.e4 dxe3ep+ 25.Kc2 axb3+ 26.Rxb3 Bd7 27.Qf3 Rxb3 28.Qe4+ Re6 29.Qxh7 Rb6 0-1

After a few minutes on a P4-3.0, CM9_R1 shows a significant advantage for Black in your position (and shows the interesting move 5.g5!? for White):

Code: Select all

Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
0:00	1/3	-1.21	1075		5.h3 h5 6.gxh5 Rxh5
0:00	1/3	-1.11	2528		5.g5 Bf5 6.Nf3 e6
0:00	1/4	-0.89	4111		5.g5 h6 6.Nf3 hxg5 7.Nc3
0:00	1/5	-1.18	10017		5.g5 e5 6.Qa4 Qd5 7.Nf3 Bc5
0:00	1/5	-0.98	13709		5.h3 h5 6.g5 e5 7.Nf3 Bd6
0:00	1/6	-0.74	32928		5.h3 h5 6.g5 e5 7.Nf3 e4
0:00	1/7	-0.97	119658		5.h3 h5 6.gxh5 e5 7.Nc3 Bc5 8.Ne4
0:01	1/7	-0.72	181778		5.Qa4 Qd6 6.h3 h5 7.g5 Be6 8.Nf3 a5
0:02	1/8	-0.77	296349		5.Qa4 Bxg4 6.Qxc6+ Bd7 7.Qxc4 e5
					8.Nf3 Bd6 9.d4
0:04	1/9	-0.69	710048		5.Qa4 Qd5 6.Nf3 Qb5 7.Qxb5 cxb5
					8.Nc3 c6 9.h3 Nf6 10.d3 cxd3 11.exd3
					
0:08	1/10	-0.69	1286325		5.Qa4 Qd5 6.f3 Qb5 7.Qc2 h5 8.Nc3
					Qb6 9.g5 e5 10.e3
0:18	2/11	-0.83	2901599		5.Qa4 Qd5 6.f3 Qb5 7.Qc2 h5 8.Nc3
					Qb6 9.Na4 Qb4 10.a3
0:42	3/12	-0.79	6773267		5.Qa4 Qd5 6.f3 Qb5 7.Qc2 e5 8.Nc3
					Qb6 9.e3 Be7 10.Nge2 Nf6 11.h4
1:27	3/12	-0.74	14675480	5.g5 e5 6.Qa4 Ne7 7.Nc3 Be6 8.Nf3
					f6 9.Ne4 Bd5 10.d3 cxd3 11.exd3
3:54	4/13	-0.81	39796830	5.g5 e5 6.Qa4 Bb7 7.Nc3 Qxg5 8.Nf3
					Qf5 9.Qxc4 O-O-O 10.d3 c5 11.Be3
					Nf6

jm

[ozziejoe]

I could not find one example of nc6 in my 3.5 million hugebase, so i think it is pretty rare. It is probably rare for a strong player to accept trippled pawns and an isolated pawn on the A file...but i see Tord's point. I've played nc6 in a correspondance game.

J