Dom Leste's Old vs New engine tournament

[Eraserheads]

Message from Dom:

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Hi

I know you like tactical engines. I be doing alittle tournament soon in CCRL Old engines versus v New ones. I just wanted your input of the best attacking, human style engines around 2700 level. Below are 10 engines which i think fits in this 2700 range while providing fireworks.

What i mean is around Shredder 7.04 level

Fritz 7/8? Bahrain/X3d?
Hiarcs 9 - probably

Junior 7/8/9?

Thinker 5.1F

Bright 0.1D

Prodeo 1.2

Chesstiger 14

Cm9000 custom settings

gandalf 6

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Hi Dom,

For a long time I considered Shredder 7.04 as a top notch grinder. It is a longtime top rated engine. The style can be varying for 7.04

It usually uses a mix of ways to beat opponents. Tactical shots, kingside attacks, and endgame grinds. Usually endgame grinds.

But Shredder 5 is very stylistic.

Shredder 5 has a known penchant for sacrificing a single pawn to gain an upper hand positionally. It applies this technique in almost all of its games. In the old days chess programs have some difficulties understanding this concept. Shredder 5 was a step ahead of the competition and it used this advantage beautifully to beat its opponents. Nowadays this concept is common, but back then it was already a revelation. To see Shredder 5 again applying this technique, let it play against weaker opponents...then you'll see Shredder 5 in its element. Very instructive positional play.



I will try my best to give you my opinions and impressions on your engines.

Fritz 7/8? Bahrain/X3d?
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Fritz 6 I consider to be a strong tactical engine, but I had a feeling it wins using the "Cheap shot" approach. Not to discredit Fritz 6, but rather to say that it usually wins vs other engines during its era, by tactical shots missed by others. Fritz 6 cannot do this anymore today against today's engines. To see Fritz 6's active tactical style you have to let it play vs weaker engines or vs engines during 1999-2001.

Fritz 7/8 are somewhat similar to fritz 6, but it has changed a lot in order to become stronger overall. Whereas fritz 6 bases its strength mostly on tactical grounds, fritz 7 and 8 have become more positional.


Fritz Bahrain was probably geared to play in anti-Kramnik style, and Fritz X3d created to play against the style of Kasparov. Among the two, I like X3d more. It gives the impression that it plays at least more dynamically. Bahrain and X3D versions are stronger that Fritz 6,7,8 IMO.

Deep Fritz 10 - They say this is the most aggressive Fritz among the recent versions. I tried to study its play, and yes, I'd say it is very active. But Fritz 12 is also a hungry beast. I thought version 12 is the most aggressive of the Fritz versions.

It occasionally gives a fast knockout against top engines when it catches its opponent letting up a bit. I have lots of games in my old HD of F12 playing like it has nothing to lose. It gives the impression that the authors have pumped up its attacking algorithms. More tests are needed though.

Junior 7 - To admire this engine's brilliance you have to let it play vs weaker engines. It will almost always play a very entertaining game. Against today's top engines it will only get slaughtered.
I keep this engine nowadays for analysis. In critical positions, or in "Find-the-Mikhail Tal-like-move" problems, it usually finds great looking sacrifices. It is a must have.

Junior 8 and 9 got a lot stronger, at the expense of some of Junior 7's raw wildness. I do not like these two very much. I was hoping for Junior 8 and other future Juniors to play a lot stronger, but still keeping the impressive style. Thinker has become the new "Junior" for me.

Thinker 5.1f - Up to now I do not know which version plays the most aggressive, most entertaining among all the versions. Probably 5.3b inert, or previous passive versions. The newer Thinker versions got a lot stronger, but perhaps they have sacrificed a bit of their style to achieve it.

Although it does not give analysis variations yet, it truly is a reincarnated Junior 7 on steroids. Very powerful play, with a very attractive and Tal-like style. You can let it play against today's top engines and it would still win with the fantastic style of the old Junior 7. The search to find the best version is still on going.


Bright 0.1D - I like Bright 0.4a the most. I thought I have seen all the possible styles there in in computerchess, until I saw Bright 0.4a.
It can usually lead plain, dull openings into jungles in a matter of a few moves. It has an otherworldly style that is quite different from Junior/thinker. Some types of unique decisions it produces can be seen in the ff:

As white, when its opponent captures a knight on f3 for example, and given a choice of recapture between Qxf3, or gxf3, it will choose gxf3, damaging its pawn structure, but eventually leading to a most unusual game where all sorts of things can happen in the kingside. It would choose moves you wouldn't normally even consider. Double pawns, triple pawns, pawn islands, unusual exchanges, long moves, unusual retreats, risky pawn advances, etc, Bright 0.4a likes them and shows that you can even use them to win. Very unorthodox style.
The new spark - I haven't tried it much yet, but I hear it plays differently.

Prodeo 1.2 - I always liked the old rebels. Prodeo 1.2 is following the tradition of the rebel lineage. I find rebel's play always to be "Mature"
Even in the old days, you can feel that Rebel knows what it is doing, and plays with a plan. This is how I see it. It is a well rounded engine, that usually won't fall for cheap tricks. You have to play extremely well to keep up with it in a game.

Of course you can tweak it to play ala tal by using one of the personalities...but I like the default engine the best. The Q3 personality is an excellent early "Winfinder". It scored a 2995 in a tactical test suite in the old days. Back then, that is a phenomenal number!

Chesstiger 14 - One of my favorites. If you ever studied how Karpov plays in the 1970's, you will appreciate this engine very much.
Back then, against 1999-2003 era engines, when Chess Tiger 14 gives a 0.5 advantage to itself, you can almost be sure that it will steadily climb to 0.6 - 0.7 0.8 0.9 1.0 1.1 in a gradual strangulation of the opponent.
Nowadays, I cannot see this happening anymore versus today's top engines. Against Rybka for example, Chess Tiger 14's evals fluctuate uncharacteristically. A .75 advantage to itself can suddenly vanish vs Rybka. Again, to relive its glory days, you have to let it play against weaker engines...there it will show you why it was the shooting star among chess engines. It is a very positionally active engine. I imagine it to be Karpovian in style. Future chess tiger versions have lost this Karpov like character. It has become more mainstream IMO. Stronger, yes, but I think it has lost its character.

Gambit Tiger 2 aggressive mode - This is a very impressive engine. Again, it has a different style compared to Junior/Thinker/Bright...where in Gambit Tiger has its sights set on the opponent's King.
In almost every game you can see GT2 hunting down the King in a most impressive way. It gives the impression that it is a Do-or-Die King hunting engine. Thinker or Junior plays attacks everywhere on the board, but GT2 almost exclusively plays to checkmate the King.

This game shows you just how bloodthirsty it is when it smells the enemy king:

http://www.rebel.nl/sune.htm

Gambit Tiger is Black.

1. d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 c6 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Nbd7 6.Qc2 Bd6 7.a3 dxc4 8.Bxc4 Qc7 9.0-0 e5 10.h3 0-0 11.b4 exd4 12.Nxd4 a5 13.b5 Nb6 14.Bd3 c5 15.Nf5 c4 16.Be2 Bh2+ 17.Kh1 Qc5 18.Nd4 Bb8 19.Bb2


19...g5!!??

All out for the Kinghunt!

This game gave me a very powerful impression. It plays like this almost every game, especially vs weaker engines or engines from 1999-2003 era.

Chessmaster - CM has always been the darkhorse. Some personalities can be very aggressive. This is the one engine I haven't tested fully...though I like the default engine. I can describe the style as "Very Active against humans" Think Bobby Fischer playing Bc4 against your Najdorf. The King engine likes to have air in its position. It doesn't like to be on the defensive, and will gladly give away pawns to open lines of attack. Much underrated in my opinion, and it should be on the stable of the attacking engine fan.

Gandalf - I liked the old Gandalf 4.32 back then because of its stylistic mix of Rebel's "Maturity" and Chessmaster's Aggressiveness.

Gandalf 6 has become more well rounded and stronger, without losing its style. I think the programmers made it so that it finds very deep combinations in an instant. Quite aggressive, this engine, but not as aggressive as Gambit Tiger when It comes to king hunts. Against today's engines, it will fall back behind. We need an update.

Those are my impressions on the engines mentioned.

[jdart]

Scorpio, while not in the same league as most of these, is also a "tactical" engine IMO - in the sense that it is has a large bonus for king attacks (can be several pawns in value). Personally, I've found that's not necessarily an advantage but sometimes it works well.

--Jon

[DomLeste]

World computer chess programs who won from 2000-2009

If it was a even field to limit strength then it will looklike this

Studying CCRL/CEGT rating list. Rating wise it would be looklike.

Rybka 1.2f 32bit (2007 champ 2.0 beta) 2889
Zap!Chess Reykjavik 4 CPU 64bit 2850
Shredder 7.04/8 4CPU 2855
Junior 10 4 CPU 2870 Junior 7 64 CPU? 2841

All i need a Octa 64bit PC

Fritz 10, Hiarcs Paderborn, Thinker 5.2M Passive 2 CPU are around the same strength.