Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

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WuShock
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:13 am

Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by WuShock »

Toby-Tal draws first blood !! Rybka blunders (?) at move 49 .........
Same conditions as Game 1........

49. T-T = +.65 , R3 = -.24
50. T-T = +2.40 , R3 = -.27
51. T-T = +2.80 , R3 = -6.00

If anybody has any simple test I can run that would tell them some kind of insight , let me know...........

Toby-Tal's game score :

[Event "Blitz:15'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Toby 1q 1 CPU"]
[Black "Rybka 3"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "113"]
[TimeControl "900"]

{512MB, Mybook19.ctg, } 1. e4 {B/0 0} c5 {4} 2. Nf3 {B/0 0} d6 {3}
3. d4 {B/0 0} cxd4 {3} 4. Nxd4 {B/0 0} Nf6 {3} 5. Nc3 {0.10/17 15} g6 {38} 6.
Be3 {0.15/17 12} Bg7 {27} 7. f3 {0.15/18 14} O-O {33} 8. Qd2 {0.25/19 14} Nc6 {
37} 9. O-O-O {0.40/18 18} Qa5 {23} 10. Kb1 {0.50/16 8} a6 {29} 11. g4 {0.45/20
62} Be6 {24} 12. Nxe6 {0.50/18 8} fxe6 {41} 13. Bc4 {0.40/19 12} Nd8 {21} 14.
e5 {0.40/18 8} Qxe5 {20} 15. Bd4 {0.45/17 9} Qa5 {14} 16. Qe2 {0.40/19 32} d5 {
22} 17. Bxf6 {0.40/19 17} exf6 {24} 18. Nxd5 {0.40/17 0} Kh8 {68} 19. Ne3 {0.
40/18 21} f5 {20} 20. c3 {0.55/17 5} b5 {40} 21. Bb3 {0.45/18 10} b4 {26} 22.
Nc4 {0.45/18 12} Qc7 {16} 23. cxb4 {0.45/19 24} Nc6 {16} 24. Qxe6 {0.55/18 16}
Nd4 {16} 25. Qd5 {0.55/18 5} Rad8 {55} 26. Qa5 {0.45/18 14} Qf4 {26} 27. gxf5 {
0.45/18 5} Qxf3 {15} 28. fxg6 {0.45/18 7} hxg6 {39} 29. Rhe1 {0.00/19 45} Nxb3
{10} 30. Qxd8 {0.45/16 0} Rxd8 {39} 31. Rxd8+ {0.40/19 5} Kh7 {26} 32. axb3 {
0.40/18 0} Qxb3 {20} 33. Re4 {0.35/19 6} Qh3 {53} 34. Kc2 {0.40/20 19} Qxh2+ {9
} 35. Kb3 {0.40/20 9} Qf2 {11} 36. Rd6 {0.45/20 20} Qf7 {20} 37. Re3 {0.40/19 3
} Bf8 {13} 38. Rh3+ {0.35/20 14} Kg7 {13} 39. Rxa6 {0.35/20 5} g5 {15} 40. Ra5
{0.35/19 5} Qe7 {41} 41. Rb5 {0.35/18 4} g4 {9} 42. Rd3 {0.35/18 13} Qe1 {12}
43. Rg5+ {0.35/17 2} Kh6 {17} 44. Rxg4 {0.35/18 5} Qxb4+ {4} 45. Kc2 {0.35/18 3
} Kh5 {12} 46. Ne3 {0.40/17 4} Qb5 {21} 47. Rf4 {0.40/17 5} Qc6+ {12} 48. Rc4 {
0.45/17 5} Qe6 {12} 49. b4 {0.65/17 2} Bxb4 {10} 50. Rxb4 {2.40/17 2} Kg6 {43}
51. Nd5 {2.80/16 2} Qc6+ {53} 52. Kb2 {6.25/19 3} Qc5 {16} 53. Rg3+ {6.25/17 0}
Kf5 {17} 54. Rf4+ {6.25/20 2} Ke6 {11} 55. Re3+ {6.25/21 2} Kxd5 {31} 56. Rf5+
{6.25/20 0} Kd4 {12} 57. Rxc5 {#15/28 2} *

---------------------------------------------------

Rybka's game score :

[Event "Blitz:15'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2010.01.07"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Toby-Tal"]
[Black "Rybka 3 1-cpu"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "114"]
[TimeControl "900"]

{512MB, Rybka3.ctg} 1. e4 {0} c5 {0} 2. Nf3 {4} d6 {0} 3. d4 {3} cxd4 {0} 4.
Nxd4 {3} Nf6 {0} 5. Nc3 {21} g6 {-0.03/14 17} 6. Be3 {33} Bg7 {-0.04/15 17} 7.
f3 {25} O-O {0.19/15 26} 8. Qd2 {31} Nc6 {0.26/14 17} 9. O-O-O {29} Qa5 {
0.25/14 13} 10. Kb1 {16} a6 {0.35/13 16} 11. g4 {79} Be6 {0.26/14 12} 12. Nxe6
{16} fxe6 {0.47/15 23} 13. Bc4 {31} Nd8 {0.47/15 13} 14. e5 {18} Qxe5 {
0.31/14 8} 15. Bd4 {18} Qa5 {0.31/12 0} 16. Qe2 {51} d5 {0.30/14 14} 17. Bxf6 {
27} exf6 {0.41/15 14} 18. Nxd5 {8} Kh8 {0.40/16 61} 19. Ne3 {30} f5 {0.40/14 14
} 20. c3 {12} b5 {0.44/14 21} 21. Bb3 {36} b4 {0.50/14 13} 22. Nc4 {17} Qc7 {
0.36/14 10} 23. cxb4 {30} Nc6 {0.36/15 9} 24. Qxe6 {24} Nd4 {0.39/15 8} 25. Qd5
{19} Rad8 {0.37/14 17} 26. Qa5 {46} Qf4 {0.39/14 18} 27. gxf5 {13} Qxf3 {
0.26/14 9} 28. fxg6 {12} hxg6 {0.26/14 7} 29. Rhe1 {78} Nxb3 {0.26/14 4} 30.
Qxd8 {9} Rxd8 {0.32/16 17} 31. Rxd8+ {26} Kh7 {0.36/17 19} 32. axb3 {5} Qxb3 {
0.34/18 14} 33. Re4 {14} Qh3 {0.23/18 43} 34. Kc2 {28} Qxh2+ {0.23/16 4} 35.
Kb3 {14} Qf2 {0.23/16 6} 36. Rd6 {26} Qf7 {0.28/16 13} 37. Re3 {10} Bf8 {
0.23/16 7} 38. Rh3+ {21} Kg7 {0.24/16 6} 39. Rxa6 {12} g5 {0.20/16 10} 40. Ra5
{10} Qe7 {0.29/15 5} 41. Rb5 {40} g4 {0.31/15 4} 42. Rd3 {17} Qe1 {0.29/14 6}
43. Rg5+ {7} Kh6 {0.28/15 12} 44. Rxg4 {10} Qxb4+ {0.28/14 0} 45. Kc2 {7} Kh5 {
0.27/15 6} 46. Ne3 {10} Qb5 {0.28/15 16} 47. Rf4 {13} Qc6+ {0.27/14 5} 48. Rc4
{10} Qe6 {0.26/16 7} 49. b4 {7} Bxb4 {0.24/13 3} 50. Rxb4 {11} Kg6 {0.27/15 6}
51. Nd5 {41} Qc6+ {6.00/16 46} 52. Kb2 {11} Qc5 {6.02/14 5} 53. Rg3+ {12} Kf5 {
6.04/15 6} 54. Rf4+ {13} Ke6 {6.04/15 5} 55. Re3+ {0} Kxd5 {6.07/14 6} 56. Rf5+
{4} Kd4 {6.07/15 8} 57. Rxc5 {8} Kxe3 {6.08/14 5} *

--------------------

As a side note , I know nothing about programming , chess or otherwise , I can barely figure out my own computer....... And , worst of all , after 37 + years as my favorite hobby , I'm still a lousy chess player......... But I still have a lot of fun............. :)
sockmonkey
Posts: 588
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:16 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by sockmonkey »

WuShock wrote:Toby-Tal draws first blood !! Rybka blunders (?) at move 49 .........
Same conditions as Game 1........

49. T-T = +.65 , R3 = -.24
50. T-T = +2.40 , R3 = -.27
51. T-T = +2.80 , R3 = -6.00

If anybody has any simple test I can run that would tell them some kind of insight , let me know...........
If you wanted to run the test positions that Alexander posted:

7K/8/2Q1Q3/1Q3Q2/3k4/1Q3Q2/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0
1R3B1K/N1N5/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/N1N5/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0
1R3B1K/N7/2Q1Q3/5Q1R/3k4/1Q3Q2/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0
1R3B1K/8/2Q1Q3/B6R/3k4/6B1/2Q1Q3/R1B4R w - - 0 0
1R5K/8/2Q1Q3/B6R/3k4/6B1/2Q1Q3/R1B4R w - - 0 0
1R5K/8/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R1B1B2R w - - 0 0
1R4RK/8/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0
7K/8/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0
7K/8/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R7 w - - 0 0
7B/6K1/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0
6KB/8/2Q1Q3/2R1R3/3k4/2R1R3/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0
7k/8/8/8/8/3p4/1K6/8 w - - 0 0
8/7k/5P2/8/8/8/1K6/8 w - - 0 0

and see what moves TobyTal suggests, it might help determine if it's evaluating like Ippolit. Certainly not conclusive, but it might be good information to have.

Jeremy
WuShock
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:13 am

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by WuShock »

I'd be happy to do that......... some of the positions seem pretty weird.......
How long do you want it to analyze , and what info do you want to see ??
sockmonkey
Posts: 588
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:16 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by sockmonkey »

WuShock wrote:I'd be happy to do that......... some of the positions seem pretty weird.......
How long do you want it to analyze , and what info do you want to see ??
Analysis should be more or less instant (it's mate in all but the last 2). And you just need to post the suggested move. Like I said, it's not really conclusive, but both Robbo & Ippo share the same analysis, which is quite distinct from that of Rybkas 1 & 2 (also shared). Someone will probably jump in to say that it's rubbish, but it's information.
User avatar
michiguel
Posts: 6401
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by michiguel »

sockmonkey wrote:
WuShock wrote:Toby-Tal draws first blood !! Rybka blunders (?) at move 49 .........
Same conditions as Game 1........

49. T-T = +.65 , R3 = -.24
50. T-T = +2.40 , R3 = -.27
51. T-T = +2.80 , R3 = -6.00

If anybody has any simple test I can run that would tell them some kind of insight , let me know...........
If you wanted to run the test positions that Alexander posted:

7K/8/2Q1Q3/1Q3Q2/3k4/1Q3Q2/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0
1R3B1K/N1N5/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/N1N5/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0
1R3B1K/N7/2Q1Q3/5Q1R/3k4/1Q3Q2/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0
1R3B1K/8/2Q1Q3/B6R/3k4/6B1/2Q1Q3/R1B4R w - - 0 0
1R5K/8/2Q1Q3/B6R/3k4/6B1/2Q1Q3/R1B4R w - - 0 0
1R5K/8/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R1B1B2R w - - 0 0
1R4RK/8/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0
7K/8/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0
7K/8/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R7 w - - 0 0
7B/6K1/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0
6KB/8/2Q1Q3/2R1R3/3k4/2R1R3/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0
7k/8/8/8/8/3p4/1K6/8 w - - 0 0
8/7k/5P2/8/8/8/1K6/8 w - - 0 0

and see what moves TobyTal suggests, it might help determine if it's evaluating like Ippolit. Certainly not conclusive, but it might be good information to have.

Jeremy
Did anybody try with Fruit?

Miguel
sockmonkey
Posts: 588
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:16 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by sockmonkey »

michiguel wrote:Did anybody try with Fruit?
Miguel

Code: Select all

Fruit 2.31

7K/8/2Q1Q3/1Q3Q2/3k4/1Q3Q2/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0            Qcd1#
1R3B1K/N1N5/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/N1N5/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0       Rad1#
1R3B1K/N7/2Q1Q3/5Q1R/3k4/1Q3Q2/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0      Rad1#
1R3B1K/8/2Q1Q3/B6R/3k4/6B1/2Q1Q3/R1B4R w - - 0 0        Ra4#
1R5K/8/2Q1Q3/B6R/3k4/6B1/2Q1Q3/R1B4R w - - 0 0          Ra4#
1R5K/8/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R1B1B2R w - - 0 0           Ra4#
1R4RK/8/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0              Rad1#
7K/8/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0                  Rad1#
7K/8/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R7 w - - 0 0                   Rd1#
7B/6K1/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0                  Qcd1#
6KB/8/2Q1Q3/2R1R3/3k4/2R1R3/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0           Qcd1#
7k/8/8/8/8/3p4/1K6/8 w - - 0 0                          Kc3
8/7k/5P2/8/8/8/1K6/8 w - - 0 0                          Kc3
Gerd Isenberg
Posts: 2251
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:47 pm
Location: Hattingen, Germany

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by Gerd Isenberg »

sockmonkey wrote:
WuShock wrote:I'd be happy to do that......... some of the positions seem pretty weird.......
How long do you want it to analyze , and what info do you want to see ??
Analysis should be more or less instant (it's mate in all but the last 2). And you just need to post the suggested move. Like I said, it's not really conclusive, but both Robbo & Ippo share the same analysis, which is quite distinct from that of Rybkas 1 & 2 (also shared). Someone will probably jump in to say that it's rubbish, but it's information.
It's not rubbish. It is a symptom and a precondition for equal programs like literal clones. As GCP mentioned, it would be simple to change, for instance piece lists with reverse square order per piece or traversing bitboards the other way around (bsf vs. bsr), not to mention assigning other move scores for sorting.
Taner Altinsoy
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:56 pm
Location: Istanbul

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by Taner Altinsoy »

In the above game at move 52 after Kb2 I analysed the position with a few different engines for 1 min. Evaluation score range for each is given below (The score is 6.25 for the new engine):

Rybka 3x64 - 5.29-5.99
Stockfish 1.6s JA 64 bit 82.67-83.03
Robbolito 0.085e4 6.17-6.69
Robbolito 0.09 6.10-6.61
Fritz12 8.25-8.54

I don't want to jump into any conclusions but it will be funny if we start discussing in a new thread if the new engine is a clone of a possible clone of a possible clone...

Taner Altinsoy
User avatar
michiguel
Posts: 6401
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by michiguel »

Gerd Isenberg wrote:
sockmonkey wrote:
WuShock wrote:I'd be happy to do that......... some of the positions seem pretty weird.......
How long do you want it to analyze , and what info do you want to see ??
Analysis should be more or less instant (it's mate in all but the last 2). And you just need to post the suggested move. Like I said, it's not really conclusive, but both Robbo & Ippo share the same analysis, which is quite distinct from that of Rybkas 1 & 2 (also shared). Someone will probably jump in to say that it's rubbish, but it's information.
It's not rubbish. It is a symptom and a precondition for equal programs like literal clones. As GCP mentioned, it would be simple to change, for instance piece lists with reverse square order per piece or traversing bitboards the other way around (bsf vs. bsr), not to mention assigning other move scores for sorting.
You can even change this changing compilers. SF had discrepancies before because uses quicksort standard library. Some of then are stable and some not, so, they could give different order for equal scores. Libraries could change if you use a different compiler so... a program that is 100% at the source level could in fact give different answers. This is an extreme case, but just to illustrate the point.

Miguel
User avatar
michiguel
Posts: 6401
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Re: Toby-Tal vs Rybka 3 , Game 2 , 1-0

Post by michiguel »

sockmonkey wrote:
michiguel wrote:Did anybody try with Fruit?
Miguel

Code: Select all

Fruit 2.31

7K/8/2Q1Q3/1Q3Q2/3k4/1Q3Q2/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0            Qcd1#
1R3B1K/N1N5/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/N1N5/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0       Rad1#
1R3B1K/N7/2Q1Q3/5Q1R/3k4/1Q3Q2/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0      Rad1#
1R3B1K/8/2Q1Q3/B6R/3k4/6B1/2Q1Q3/R1B4R w - - 0 0        Ra4#
1R5K/8/2Q1Q3/B6R/3k4/6B1/2Q1Q3/R1B4R w - - 0 0          Ra4#
1R5K/8/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R1B1B2R w - - 0 0           Ra4#
1R4RK/8/2Q1Q3/7R/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0              Rad1#
7K/8/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R6R w - - 0 0                  Rad1#
7K/8/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/R7 w - - 0 0                   Rd1#
7B/6K1/2Q1Q3/8/3k4/8/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0                  Qcd1#
6KB/8/2Q1Q3/2R1R3/3k4/2R1R3/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 0           Qcd1#
7k/8/8/8/8/3p4/1K6/8 w - - 0 0                          Kc3
8/7k/5P2/8/8/8/1K6/8 w - - 0 0                          Kc3
Not equal to Rybka...

Miguel