Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NOW...

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pichy
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Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NOW...

Post by pichy »

Larry last year you said that it would take at least 3 years for a Shogi program to be equal to the Shogi Champion, but I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NOW.
http://www.fujitsu.com/global/news/pr/a ... 16-02.html

"Shogi is certainly more tactically complex than chess, but the evaluation of positions is even more difficult than in chess. It just happens that in chess material is overwhelmingly important, it takes a lot of compensation just for one pawn, and having adequate positional compensation for two pawns or the equivalent is quite rare, rare enough that a program that assumed it was impossible would probably only give up a handful of Elo points. But in shogi it is far easier to have compensation for material, and the tradeoff is very hard to judge. It is quite difficult to teach a program to make this judgement as well as a top shogi pro can make it. Just adding up a bunch of positional features the way chess programs do just won't work. If you want to say that this makes shogi a more positional game than chess, well that's a matter of definition. I would say that it's a game where proper "positional" play is relatively more important than in chess, but not necessarily more complex. A great deal of effort has already gone into making strong shogi programs, ok less than in chess but still quite a lot, and the problems haven't been fully solved, though the rate of progress is impressive. I'll predict 3 years until a program is equal to the Champ."



PS: Another question can you draw against Bonanza using this winboard GUI :?:
http://hgm.nubati.net/WinBoard-SG.zip

http://www.4shared.com/zip/JjXmY6Ry/bonanza_v60.html


Then the main event: the International Shogi Tournament. 32 players from
27 different countries had come to Japan to fight for the honour of being
the first winner of this great event (dare we call it a World Championship?).
6 players from Asia, 13 players from Europe, 1 player from the Middle-East,
2 from North America, 3 from South America and 2 from Oceania were divided
into eight groups of four players. The winners and the runners-up of each
group would qualify for the knock-out tournament. For me the winner was
clear: the Japanese Shibu Meijin Hayashi Takahiro is a top class Japanese
amateur player, who reached the final of the amateur Ryu-O last year. When
I met him there, he turned out to be very talkative and relaxed. Even his
English is pretty good, which made him the perfect representative in this
tournament. The question was: who would he meet in the final? Larry Kaufman
was a likely candidate, as was George Fernandez. And how about the two
Chinese Zao and Shu, who were said to be very strong? Or maybe the
"Brazilian" Aoki Mikio, who was presented as 6-dan in the Forum booklet?
European hopes were European Champion Boris Mirnik from Germany and Eric
Cheymol from France.

This is how the groups were divided:

Group A:
++++++++
Cho Ul Cha Korea
Kisliuk Lev Ulianovich Russia
Larry Kaufman USA
Matt Casters Belgium

Group B:
++++++++
Boris Mirnik Germany
Ashigaki Kaoru Japan
Virginia Gonzaga Suzuki Philipines
Marco Durante Italy

Group C:
++++++++
Tanada Mayumi Japan
Robert Miller New Zealand
Fernando Batista Portugal
Shu Jen Don China

Group D:
++++++++
Irina Novikov Israel
Zao Guo Lon China
Alexander Martinoff Paraguay
Carl Johan Nilsson Sweden

Group E:
++++++++
Chai Mee Joon Singapore
Simon Morgan Australia
Alse Olufsen Norway
Niwa Kenji Japan

Group F:
++++++++
Hayashi Takahiro Japan
Les Blackstock England
Almira Scripcenco Moldova
George Fernandez USA

Group G:
++++++++
Eric Cheymol France
Sakurai Naohiko Argentina
Seppo Kalevi Ronkko Finland
Viktor Tyshchenko Ukrain

Group H:
++++++++
Harry Iwata Canada
Wisit Ngaolertloi Thailand
Aoki Mikio Brazil
Marc Theeuwen The Netherlands
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mschribr
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by mschribr »

pichy wrote:I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NOW. http://www.fujitsu.com/global/news/pr/a ... 16-02.html
On what basis do you say that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ now? A men’s professional (grandmaster) Shogi player has not played a computer since 2007. So we can only guess the outcome between a computer and a professional. My guess is the computer will be beat the world champion in Shogi in 2020. Your link to fujitsu shows Bonkras beating Yonenaga, the 1993 champion. Now he is 68 years old. Yonenaga is not a professional Shogi player in 2012.

Do you know the 22nd world computer Shogi championship is May 3-5? The games are broadcast live on the internet. Competition is fierce between 50 computers. Last year GPS on a monster cluster with 263 processors, 832 cores and 1,486 GB memory and it still came in 6th place. A professional player will evaluate the games. See http://www.computer-shogi.org/index_e.html
pichy
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by pichy »

mschribr wrote:
pichy wrote:I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NOW. http://www.fujitsu.com/global/news/pr/a ... 16-02.html
On what basis do you say that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ now? A men’s professional (grandmaster) Shogi player has not played a computer since 2007. So we can only guess the outcome between a computer and a professional. My guess is the computer will be beat the world champion in Shogi in 2020. Your link to fujitsu shows Bonkras beating Yonenaga, the 1993 champion. Now he is 68 years old. Yonenaga is not a professional Shogi player in 2012.

Do you know the 22nd world computer Shogi championship is May 3-5? The games are broadcast live on the internet. Competition is fierce between 50 computers. Last year GPS on a monster cluster with 263 processors, 832 cores and 1,486 GB memory and it still came in 6th place. A professional player will evaluate the games. See http://www.computer-shogi.org/index_e.html

Where can I wath the live Shogi Championshit, they did not even posted the games played Machine vs Human back in January in Youtuve.com

PS: Fujitsu is using a system twice faster and with an improved Bonkras engine, in which if the current champion is only a few Elo or Rank higher then the Ex Champion Yonenaga regardless of his age, it would be wise to assume that Bonkras is playing at the level of the Champion if NOTvery close. :wink:
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Dan Honeycutt
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by Dan Honeycutt »

pichy wrote:... Shogi Championshit,
he,he. dang typos.

Best
Dan H.
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mschribr
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by mschribr »

pichy wrote: Where can I wath the live Shogi Championship, they did not even posted the games played Machine vs Human back in January in Youtuve.com

PS: Fujitsu is using a system twice faster and with an improved Bonkras engine, in which if the current champion is only a few Elo or Rank higher then the Ex Champion Yonenaga regardless of his age, it would be wise to assume that Bonkras is playing at the level of the Champion if NOTvery close. :wink:
Which live Shogi Championship are you looking for? Takodori's Entrance to Shogi World has a link to the game Bonkras played with Yonenaga on January 14, 2012. The link is at Bonkras beat Yonenaga in 113 moves, http://shogi.typepad.jp/eweblog/2012/01 ... moves.html
The current champion is not a few Elo and not few Rank higher then the Ex Champion Yonenaga. The Ex Champion Yonenaga is not even a professional (grandmaster) player. To make this clear, compare the current fide champion Anand to the 1993 fide champion Karpov. I am not trying to knock down Karpov. But Karpov at 60 has not been active for years. I think if Karpov were active today, he would not be rated a GM today. Either way Karpov today is not in the same league as Anand. The same with 1993 Meijin Yonenaga. If Yonenaga were playing today, he would not be rated professional (grandmaster) player. Yonenaga today is not in the same league as Moriuchi, the current Meijin.
pichy
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by pichy »

mschribr wrote:
pichy wrote: Where can I wath the live Shogi Championship, they did not even posted the games played Machine vs Human back in January in Youtuve.com

PS: Fujitsu is using a system twice faster and with an improved Bonkras engine, in which if the current champion is only a few Elo or Rank higher then the Ex Champion Yonenaga regardless of his age, it would be wise to assume that Bonkras is playing at the level of the Champion if NOTvery close. :wink:
Which live Shogi Championship are you looking for? Takodori's Entrance to Shogi World has a link to the game Bonkras played with Yonenaga on January 14, 2012. The link is at Bonkras beat Yonenaga in 113 moves, http://shogi.typepad.jp/eweblog/2012/01 ... moves.html
The current champion is not a few Elo and not few Rank higher then the Ex Champion Yonenaga. The Ex Champion Yonenaga is not even a professional (grandmaster) player. To make this clear, compare the current fide champion Anand to the 1993 fide champion Karpov. I am not trying to knock down Karpov. But Karpov at 60 has not been active for years. I think if Karpov were active today, he would not be rated a GM today. Either way Karpov today is not in the same league as Anand. The same with 1993 Meijin Yonenaga. If Yonenaga were playing today, he would not be rated professional (grandmaster) player. Yonenaga today is not in the same league as Moriuchi, the current Meijin.
But if Yonenaga is like Kasparov both Champion of 1993, then he is only a few Elo rating away from the current champion Anand :wink:
http://chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=55309
http://chessgames.com/player/garry_kasparov.html
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mschribr
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by mschribr »

pichy wrote: But if Yonenaga is like Kasparov both Champion of 1993, then he is only a few Elo rating away from the current champion Anand :wink:
http://chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=55309
http://chessgames.com/player/garry_kasparov.html
Yonenaga is not like Kasparov. Kasparov retired as the number 1 rated player. He did not decline much in abilities by the time of his retirement. Yonenaga was not rated number 1 when he retired. He declined a lot in abilities by the time of his retirement. Kasparov is 49. Yonenaga is now 69, that is 20 years older than Kasparov, that is a big difference.
pichy
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by pichy »

mschribr wrote:
pichy wrote: But if Yonenaga is like Kasparov both Champion of 1993, then he is only a few Elo rating away from the current champion Anand :wink:
http://chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=55309
http://chessgames.com/player/garry_kasparov.html
Yonenaga is not like Kasparov. Kasparov retired as the number 1 rated player. He did not decline much in abilities by the time of his retirement. Yonenaga was not rated number 1 when he retired. He declined a lot in abilities by the time of his retirement. Kasparov is 49. Yonenaga is now 69, that is 20 years older than Kasparov, that is a big difference.
What would you say Mr. Yonenaga current Shogi Rank might be in comparison to Standard Chess FIDE Elo rating?
pichy
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by pichy »

mschribr wrote:
pichy wrote: But if Yonenaga is like Kasparov both Champion of 1993, then he is only a few Elo rating away from the current champion Anand :wink:
http://chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=55309
http://chessgames.com/player/garry_kasparov.html
Yonenaga is not like Kasparov. Kasparov retired as the number 1 rated player. He did not decline much in abilities by the time of his retirement. Yonenaga was not rated number 1 when he retired. He declined a lot in abilities by the time of his retirement. Kasparov is 49. Yonenaga is now 69, that is 20 years older than Kasparov, that is a big difference.
So Mr.Yonenaga Vs Bonkras is compared to David Levy vs Deep Thought 1989, in that case we are getting very close to conquer the best Shogi player.
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mschribr
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Re: Larry I believe that Bonkras can beat the Shogi Champ NO

Post by mschribr »

pichy wrote: So Mr.Yonenaga Vs Bonkras is compared to David Levy vs Deep Thought 1989, in that case we are getting very close to conquer the best Shogi player.
Impossible to say because Yonenaga has been inactive for years. Can you say what rating Karpov would have today if he were active today? Then guess at Karpov rating and subtract X points (guess 100) because Yonenaga is 9 years older than Karpov. That would be my guess. The point is Bonkras beating Yonenaga does not tell you if Bonkras can beat the current Shogi champion.