Tactical opening line

[lucasart]

I came across this interesting opening:
[pgn]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3 Qxg5
8. Bxd5
[/pgn]
First 3 moves are pretty common and boring.
Then comes 4. Ng5 d5, which is already asking for trouble and early complications. The book stopped here, and only provided 4 moves.

After the forced continuation 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3 Qxg5
8. Bxd5, black played Nd4! completely unafraid of Qxf7+
[d]r1b1kb1r/ppp2p1p/2n3p1/3Bp1q1/8/5Q2/PPPP1PPP/RNB1K2R b KQkq - 0 8

Qxf7+ is indeed what DiscoCheck played with white (was 5 sec per move on a smartphone). And it is a game loosing blunder, despite looking so tempting.

After the forced 9... Kd8, white's attack stops there, and he has no more pieces to continue the attack. And more importantly, it's now black's turn to attack, and white will never have time to develop and coordinate his pieces to defend.

I don't know what you think of this position, but I reckon white is already lost, and probably his best option is to castle: 10. OO Nxc2 11. d4 Qf5 12. dxe5 Nxa1

[zullil]

After the forced continuation 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3 Qxg5
8. Bxd5,

Isn't 6. Nxf7 best? Isn't this the very old "Fried Liver Attack?"

Looks like 6. Qh5 is bad.

You need a better book here.

[lucasart]

After the forced continuation 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3 Qxg5
8. Bxd5,

Isn't 6. Nxf7 best? Isn't this the very old "Fried Liver Attack?"

Possibly. I didn't look into that.

Anyway, the position I'm interested in, is after Nd4 Qxf7+ Kd8

[d]r1bk1b1r/ppp2Q1p/6p1/3Bp1q1/3n4/8/PPPP1PPP/RNB1K2R w KQ - 1 10

I wonder if white can hold, or if it's already lost. I think it's already lost, but maybe there's a way out of it.

[zullil]

After the forced continuation 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3 Qxg5
8. Bxd5,

Isn't 6. Nxf7 best? Isn't this the very old "Fried Liver Attack?"

Possibly. I didn't look into that.

Anyway, the position I'm interested in, is after Nd4 Qxf7+ Kd8

[d]r1bk1b1r/ppp2Q1p/6p1/3Bp1q1/3n4/8/PPPP1PPP/RNB1K2R w KQ - 1 10

I wonder if white can hold, or if it's already lost. I think it's already lost, but maybe there's a way out of it.

I think White is dead already, but I'll see what SF says!

Not looking good for White:

Code: Select all

info depth 30 seldepth 55 score cp -151 nodes 1189654910 nps 7466000 time 159343 multipv 1 pv e1g1 d4c2 d5e4 c2a1 b1a3 g5e7 f7f3 c7c6 d2d4 f8g7 d4e5 d8c7 c1f4 c8e6 f3c3 a8d8 f1a1 c7b8 a3c2 g6g5 f4g3 h7h5 h2h3 h5h4 g3h2 d8d7 c2e1 h8d8 b2b3 d7d4 c3e3 d4d2 e1f3 d2d1 a1d1 d8d1 f3e1 a7a6

Code: Select all

info depth 31 seldepth 58 score cp -131 nodes 1869491854 nps 7632136 time 244950 multipv 1 pv e1g1 d4c2 b1c3 c2a1 d2d4 g5f5 d4e5 f5f7 d5f7 d8e7 f7c4 c8e6 c1g5 e7f7 c4e6 f7e6 g5f6 h8g8 f1a1 f8g7 c3e4 g7f6 e5f6 a8d8 a1c1 d8d5 f2f3 c7c6 g1f2 e6f7 f2g3 g8d8 g3g4 d5a5 a2a3 a5b5 c1c2 b5h5

Code: Select all

info depth 32 seldepth 58 score cp -135 nodes 2239083663 nps 7683909 time 291399 multipv 1 pv e1g1 d4c2 b1c3 c2a1 d2d4 g5f5 d4e5 f5f7 d5f7 d8e7 f7c4 c8e6 c1g5 e7f7 c4e6 f7e6 g5f6 h8g8 f1a1 f8g7 c3e4 g7f6 e5f6 a8d8 a1c1 d8d5 f2f3 c7c6 g1f2 e6f7 f2g3 g8d8 c1c2 d5a5 b2b3 a5d5 g3g4 d5d3 c2c1 d8d5 b3b4 d5b5

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info depth 33 seldepth 58 score cp -137 nodes 2815902932 nps 7779876 time 361947 multipv 1 pv e1g1 d4c2 b1c3 c2a1 d2d4 g5f5 d4e5 f5f7 d5f7 d8e7 f7c4 c8e6 c1g5 e7f7 c4e6 f7e6 g5f6 h8g8 f1a1 f8g7 c3e4 g7f6 e5f6 a8d8 a1c1 c7c6 f2f3 d8d5 g1f2 e6f7 f2g3 g8d8 g3f4 d5d2 e4d2 d8d2 g2g3 f7f6

Code: Select all

info depth 34 seldepth 58 score cp -139 nodes 3367081468 nps 7863117 time 428212 multipv 1 pv e1g1 d4c2 b1c3 c2a1 d2d4 g5f5 d4e5 f5f7 d5f7 d8e7 f7c4 c8e6 c1g5 e7f7 c4e6 f7e6 g5f6 h8g8 f1a1 f8g7 c3e4 g7f6 e5f6 a8d8 a1c1 c7c6 f2f3 d8d5 g1f2 e6f7 f2g3 g8d8 c1c2 d5d1 g3f4 d8d5 f4g4 d5d3 g4g5 d1f1 h2h3 h7h6

Code: Select all

info depth 35 seldepth 62 score cp -147 nodes 5212445430 nps 8048455 time 647633 multipv 1 pv e1g1 d4c2 b1c3 c2a1 d2d4 g5f5 d4e5 f5f7 d5f7 d8e7 f7c4 c8e6 c1g5 e7f7 c4e6 f7e6 g5f6 h8g8 f1a1 f8g7 c3e4 g7f6 e5f6 g8d8 f2f3 d8d5 g1f2 e6f7 a1c1 c7c6 f2g3 a8d8 g3f4 d5h5 f4g3 d8d4 h2h4 h5b5 b2b3 b5a5 a2a4 a5d5 g3f4 h7h6 c1c2 d4d3 e4c5 d3d2 c2d2 d5d2 g2g4

[jdart]

6. Qh5 is too ambitious: usual here is 6. d4, or White can try 6. Nxf7 (Fried Liver Attack), although that is probably unsound.

After 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3 I do think White is lost. I found some correspondence
games where White won but in those cases Black did not know the move 8. .. Nd4!!.

White can avoid your line by playing something like 7. Qd1, but then really has nothing to show for the Queen sortie Qh5.

--Jon

[Henk]

After the forced continuation 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3 Qxg5
8. Bxd5,

Isn't 6. Nxf7 best? Isn't this the very old "Fried Liver Attack?"

Possibly. I didn't look into that.

Anyway, the position I'm interested in, is after Nd4 Qxf7+ Kd8

[d]r1bk1b1r/ppp2Q1p/6p1/3Bp1q1/3n4/8/PPPP1PPP/RNB1K2R w KQ - 1 10

I wonder if white can hold, or if it's already lost. I think it's already lost, but maybe there's a way out of it.

My stupid chess program ( I call it Skipper) plays d5e4, c8e6, h2h4, g5d2, c1d2, e6f7

[lucasart]

6. Qh5 is too ambitious: usual here is 6. d4, or White can try 6. Nxf7 (Fried Liver Attack), although that is probably unsound.

After 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3 I do think White is lost. I found some correspondence
games where White won but in those cases Black did not know the move 8. .. Nd4!!.

White can avoid your line by playing something like 7. Qd1, but then really has nothing to show for the Queen sortie Qh5.

--Jon

You are right. 6. Qh5 is the original sin:
* best play would be 6.. g6 7. Qd1, meaning that white has nothing to show for the Queen sortie, and would have wasted time. It would not be a game losing blunder yet, but a suboptimal and unsound opening choice.
* After 6. Qh5 g6 7. Qf3?, white is already lost. Black's best move is obviously 7... Nd4!
* Now white may as well play 8. Qxf7+ (it's lost but, at least, it creates threats if black is not careful).
* Another possibility is 8. Qe4, black gets a winning endgame:
[pgn]
[FEN "r1b1kb1r/ppp2p1p/6p1/3Bp1q1/3nQ3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNB1K2R b KQkq - 2 9"]
9. ... Bf5 10. Qxe5+ Qe7 11. Qxe7+ Bxe7 12. Bb3 Bxc2 13. O-O 0-1
[/pgn]

[jdart]

If you like this sort of thing, another wild line is:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5

(Traxler gambit). White can sac two ways: 5. Bxf7+ and 5. Nxf7. After 5. Nxf7, Black can play the counter-sac .. Bxf2+:

[d] r1bqk2r/pppp1Npp/2n2n2/4p3/2B1P3/8/PPPP1bPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 6

with a very complex game, so much so that you mostly see this line only in correspondence, if at all.

--Jon

[Steve Maughan]

Hi Jon,

6. Qh5 is too ambitious: usual here is 6. d4, or White can try 6. Nxf7 (Fried Liver Attack), although that is probably unsound

I actually think the Fried Liver is sound.

Most modern engines will play Nxf7 of their own volition. After Kxf7, Qf3+ Ke6 Nc3 Nb4 there are options. Here a3 probably is unsound after Nxc2+ Kd1 Nxa1 Nxd5 Qh4!. But if instead of a3, white plays Bb3 (or even Qe4) they maintain the edge in most games I've seem played between strong engines. There is no forced win but white has oodles of compensation for the material sacrificed.

Steve

[Henk]

If you like this sort of thing, another wild line is:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5

(Traxler gambit). White can sac two ways: 5. Bxf7+ and 5. Nxf7. After 5. Nxf7, Black can play the counter-sac .. Bxf2+:

[d] r1bqk2r/pppp1Npp/2n2n2/4p3/2B1P3/8/PPPP1bPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 6

with a very complex game, so much so that you mostly see this line only in correspondence, if at all.

--Jon

I remember that my chess program had great difficulties with this position playing white. Lost a game in thirteen moves or so, when I tested it half year ago.