Berlin Defense

[Henk]

Stockfish evaluates this position as 0.29 and suggests Rd1 is best move at depth 35.

But in this video Seirawan says Rd1 is no good move for where would Ra1 go to:


[d] r1bk1b1r/ppp2ppp/2p5/4Pn2/8/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNB2RK1 w - - 0 9

[Eelco de Groot]

Yes, that is true of course. But in positions like his Stockfish will often play further with a2-a4, a4-a5 at which point Seirawan probably switches off the computer. The program just opens up the position, without knowing where the pieces should be aimed. It gets no space bonus whatsoever for the rookfiles, and still it plays this. Maybe it should get a penalty for opening up the rookfile, it would work but at some point it has to be switched off, just not in the first few moves like in this position. Queens are off and some light spaces but the pawn formations and Kings are still in opening phase. On its own maybe program would already have played a2-a4.

Rook on open file in the center is good but it just does not understand one rook pushing away the other rook. It will just open up space in front if it has to even on A or H file to get the rook out, for mobility's sake if not space, and see what happens. We as human chessplayers are not taught that way.

[Henk]

Actually I also don't think Rd1 is a bad move for if black plays a Rd8 later white may exchange the rook on d8 and problem solved. And if black does not play a Rd8 where should blacks rooks move to ?

But maybe white's rooks should be placed on e1 and d1.

[jdart]

Nakamura has a different opinion, it seems:

[pgn]
[Event "London Classic 7th"]
[Site "London"]
[Date "2015.12.13"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Nakamura, Hikaru"]
[Black "Topalov, Veselin"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C67"]
[WhiteElo "2793"]
[BlackElo "2803"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[EventDate "2015.12.03"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "ENG"]
[EventCategory "22"]
[SourceTitle "Mega2016 Update 11"]
[Source "Chessbase"]
[SourceDate "2015.12.18"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5
8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Rd1+ Ke8 10. b3 Ne7 11. Nbd2 h6 12. Nd4 Ng6 13. Bb2 Be7 14.
Nc4 Nf4 15. Ne3 g6 16. g3 Ne6 17. Ne2 h5 18. a4 a5 19. Ba3 Bxa3 20. Rxa3 Ke7
21. Raa1 Nc5 22. Kg2 Re8 23. Nd4 Kf8 24. f4 Bd7 25. h3 Rad8 26. Nf3 Be6 27. g4
hxg4 28. hxg4 Bd5 29. Rh1 Ke7 30. Nxd5+ cxd5 31. Rh7 Ne6 32. Kg3 Rg8 33. Rf1
Nf8 34. Rh2 Ne6 35. Rh7 Nf8 36. Rh2 Ne6 37. Rh7 1/2-1/2

[/pgn]

[Nordlandia]

Berlin is usually engine draw

[Henk]

So maybe value of 0.29 given by Stockfish is too much.

[Dann Corbit]

So maybe value of 0.29 given by Stockfish is too much.

0.29 is drawish

[jefk]

0.29 is drawish

probably, if it's only a position analyzed from scratch (at Rd1);
Henk could have a look at the latest Brainfish result,
but indeed the Berlin is drawish; i'm currently in a
correspondence game against a >2400 guy but
have no problem in a game where he did *not* play Rd1,
and as result i brought my king to c8 and later probably b7.

Another possibility against the Berlin is an early Re1 instead of d4,
Brainfish might find some higher values here.

jef

PS for humans below GM or maybe IM the Berlin queen exchange
still is not so easy to play though, i tried a few times against
the comp and got quickly into inferior positions

[Henk]

So maybe value of 0.29 given by Stockfish is too much.

0.29 is drawish

Just for comparison this Philidor position gets about the same score.
Anyone playing Philidor ? Stockfish gives it value 0.25 at depth 32.

[d] rnbqk1nr/ppp1bppp/3p4/8/3NP3/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 1 5

[Dann Corbit]

Are you sure that is from the Philodor?
What move sequence is used?

These are my "significant" Philodor opening fragments:

Code: Select all

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. dxe5 fxe4 5. Ng5 d5 6. e6 Bc5 7. Nc3 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. dxe5 fxe4 5. Ng5 d5 6. e6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. Nc3 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Qxd4 Bd7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 g6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 d5 5. exd5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Be2 O-O 7. O-O c5 8. Nf3 Nc6 9. Bg5 Be6 10. Re1 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxe5 Nxe4 5. Qd5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxe5 Nxe4 5. Nbd2 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxe5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Ng5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. dxe5 dxe5 7. Bxf7+ *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. Qe2 c6 8. a4 exd4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. Ng5 O-O 7. Bxf7+ Rxf7 8. Ne6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. Ng5 O-O 7. Bxf7+ *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. Bxf7+ *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. 0-0 0-0 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Bc4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Nc3 Ngf6 5. g4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Nc3 Ngf6 5. Be2 Be7 6. O-O c6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Nc3 Ngf6 5. Bc4 Be7 6. O-O h6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Nc3 Ngf6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 c6 5. c3 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 c6 5. O-O Be7 6. dxe5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 c6 5. O-O *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 c6 5. Ng5 Nh6 6. f4 Be7 7. O-O O-O 8. c3 d5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 c6 5. Ng5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 c6 5. Nc3 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 Nb6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Bg4 4. dxe5 Nd7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Bd7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bc4 f5 4. d4 exd4 5. Ng5 Nh6 6. Nxh7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bc4 f5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bc4 Be7 4. c3 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 with 3. f3 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 0-0 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 with 3. f3 e5 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 with 3. f3 d5 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 with 3. f3 Nbd7. *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. g4 Nxg4 6. Rg1 Ngf6 7. Bc4 h6 8. Be3 c6 9. dxe5 dxe5 10. Qd3 Nh5 11. Bxf7+ Kxf7 12. Nxe5+ Nxe5 13. Qxd8 Nf3+ 14. Kd1 Nxg1 15. Kc1 Nh3 16. f4 Bc5 17. Qc7+ Be7 18. Bc5 Re8 19. f5 Kf8 20. Bxe7+ Rxe7 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. g4 Nxg4 6. Rg1 Ngf6 7. Bc4 h6 8. Be3 c6 9. dxe5 dxe5 10. Qd3 Nh5 11. Bxf7+ *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. g4 Nxg4 6. Rg1 Ngf6 7. Bc4 h6 8. Be3 c6 9. Qd3 Qc7 10. 0-0-0 b5 11. Bxb5 cxb5 12. dxe5 dxe5 13. Nxb5 Qa5 14. Qc4 Rb8 15. a4 Qb4 16. Nxe5 Qxc4 17. Nxc4 a6 18. Nbd6+ Bxd6 19. Nxd6+ Kf8 20. f4 Bb7 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. 0-0 0-0 7. Re1 c6 8. a4 b6 9. d5 cxd5 10. Nxd5 Bb7 11. b3 Rc8 12. Re2 Nxd5 13. Bxd5 Bxd5 14. Qxd5 Nf6 15. Qd1 d5 16. exd5 Qxd5 17. Qxd5 Nxd5 18. Nxe5 Rfe8 19. c4 Bd6 20. Bb2 Nf4 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. g4 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. g3 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. f4 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. Nf3 e5 5. g4 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. Nf3 e5 5. Bc4 Be7 6. Bxf7 6. dxe5 dxe5 7. Bxf7 6. Ng5 0-0 7. Bxf7+ *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. Nf3 e5 5. Bc4 Be7 6. 0-0 0-0. *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. Nf3 e5 5. Bc4 Be7 6. 0-0 0-0 7. a4 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. Nf3 e5 5. Bc4 Be7 6. 0-0 0-0 7. Re1 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. Nf3 e5 5. Bc4 Be7 6. 0-0 0-0 7. Qe2 *
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Bd3 e5 4. c3 d5 *