L.T. Gambit stuff Analyzed

[Dann Corbit]

rnbq1rk1/1pp2pbp/3p1np1/p2Pp3/2P1P1P1/2N2N1P/PP3P2/R1BQKB1R b KQ - acd 38; acs 1899; bm Na6; cce -84; ce -30; pm Na6 {85} c6 {6} Ne8 {4} Nfd7 {4} Nbd7 {2} h5 {1}; pv Na6 Be3 h5 g5 Nd7 a3 Nb6 Qc2 c6 Nd2 Bd7 O-O-O Rc8 dxc6 Rxc6 Kb1 a4 Nb5 Qb8 Bxb6 Rxb6 Qxa4 Nc5 Qa5 Ra6 Qc3 Ne6 Qe3 Rc8 Nc3 Nf4 h4 Ra8 f3 b6 Rh2 Qc7 Nb3 Bc6 Nd5 Bxd5 cxd5 Qd8; white_wins 32; black_wins 18; draws 24;
rnbq1rk1/ppp2pbp/3p1np1/3Pp3/2P1P3/2N2N1P/PP3PP1/R1BQKB1R b KQ - acd 38; acs 4140; bm a5; cce -66; ce -40; pm a5 {1823} Na6 {1630} Nbd7 {554} Nh5 {479} c6 {118} c5 {35} Ne8 {33} h6 {16} Qe8 {9} Bd7 {6} Kh8 {3} Nfd7 {3} Qe7 {2} a6 {2} h5 {2} Bxh3 {1}; pv a5 Be3 Na6 g4 h5 g5 Nd7 a3 Nac5 Qc2 f5 gxf6 Qxf6 Be2 a4 Nb5 Ra5 Nxc7 Nb3 Rd1 Ndc5 Nb5 Ra6 Ng5 Bd7 h4 Bxb5 cxb5 Raa8 O-O Rac8 Bc4 Nd4 Bxd4 exd4 f4 d3 Bxd3 Qxb2 Qxb2 Bxb2 Ne6 Nxe6 dxe6; white_wins 1497; black_wins 995; draws 887; Opening ECO:E90p; King's Indian: 5.Nf3 O-O 6.h3 e5 7.d5; 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.h3 e5 7.d5 *;
rnbqkb1r/1p3ppp/p2ppn2/6B1/3NPP2/2N5/PPP3PP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - acd 42; acs 2713; bm Qb6; c3 "Qb6"; cce 3; ce 0; id "es-dc-neutral.0595"; pm Qb6 {11859} Be7 {4243} Nbd7 {3465} Qc7 {3145} b5 {668} h6 {581} Nc6 {462} Bd7 {161} Qa5 {7} e5 {4} Ke7 {2}; pv Qb6 Qd2 Qxb2 Rb1 Qa3 f5 Nc6 fxe6 fxe6 Nxc6 bxc6 Be2 Be7 O-O O-O Rb3 Qc5+ Be3 Qe5 Bd4 Qa5 Bb6 Qe5 Bd4; white_wins 8774; black_wins 8923; draws 4906; Opening Sicilian Defense: Najdorf Variation. Polugayevsky Variation; 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 b5; CaxtonID: 2152 ECO: B96;
rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/1n1p4/4P3/2PP1P2/8/PP4PP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 38; acs 1344; bm dxe5; c3 "dxe5"; cce -72; ce -34; id "C.A.P. 445103"; pm dxe5 {1612} Bf5 {495} g6 {221} g5 {75} Nc6 {17} e6 {7} c5 {6}; pv dxe5 fxe5 Bf5 Nc3 e6 Nf3 Nc6 Be3 Be7 Be2 O-O Qd2 f6 exf6 Bxf6 O-O Qe7 Rad1 Rad8 h3 Bg6 c5 Nd5 Bf2 Kh8 Nxd5 exd5 Bb5 Qd7 Bg3 Be4 Bxc6 Qxc6 Qa5 b6 Qxa7 bxc5 Qxc7 Qxc7 Bxc7; white_wins 1071; black_wins 695; draws 546; Opening Alekhine Defense: Four Pawns Attack. Trifunovic Variation; 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 Bf5; CaxtonID: 6 ECO: B03;
rnbqkb1r/pppp1ppp/8/4P3/2P1P1n1/8/PP3PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 38; acs 2160; bm Nxe5; cce -65; ce -28; id "C.A.P. 445338"; pm Nxe5 {758} d6 {41} h5 {40} Bb4+ {4} Nxf2 {1}; pv Nxe5 f4 Nec6 Nc3 Bc5 Na4 Bb4+ Bd2 Qe7 Bxb4 Qxb4+ Kf2 Qe7 g3 O-O Nc3 Re8 Nf3 d6 Bg2 Bg4 Re1 a5 Kg1 Nd7 Qd2 Nc5 Nd4 Nxd4 Qxd4 Ne6 Qd2 Nc5 b3 Qd8 h3 Be6 Kh2 f6 Rad1 Qd7 h4; white_wins 216; black_wins 148; draws 104; Opening Budapest Defense: Alekhine Variation. Tartakower Defense; 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.e4 d6; CaxtonID: 233 ECO: A52;
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/8/7N/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - acd 38; acs 4200; bm d4; cce -36; ce -42; id "C.A.P. 445648"; pm g3 {44} d4 {4} e3 {2} Ng5 {1}; pv d4 Nf6 Nf4 c5 e3 Nc6 Bb5 e6 O-O Bd7 dxc5 Bxc5 c4 a6 Bxc6 Bxc6 cxd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qc2 Bb6 Nc3 Bc6 e4 O-O Bf4 Qe7 Rad1 Rfd8 Rfe1 Rac8 Be3 Bxe3 Rxe3 b5 a3 Rxd1+ Qxd1 Rd8; white_wins 17; black_wins 21; draws 12;

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

rnbq1rk1/1pp2pbp/3p1np1/p2Pp3/2P1P1P1/2N2N1P/PP3P2/R1BQKB1R b KQ - acd 38; acs 1899; bm Na6; cce -84; ce -30; pm Na6 {85} c6 {6} Ne8 {4} Nfd7 {4} Nbd7 {2} h5 {1}; pv Na6 Be3 h5 g5 Nd7 a3 Nb6 Qc2 c6 Nd2 Bd7 O-O-O Rc8 dxc6 Rxc6 Kb1 a4 Nb5 Qb8 Bxb6 Rxb6 Qxa4 Nc5 Qa5 Ra6 Qc3 Ne6 Qe3 Rc8 Nc3 Nf4 h4 Ra8 f3 b6 Rh2 Qc7 Nb3 Bc6 Nd5 Bxd5 cxd5 Qd8; white_wins 32; black_wins 18; draws 24;
rnbq1rk1/ppp2pbp/3p1np1/3Pp3/2P1P3/2N2N1P/PP3PP1/R1BQKB1R b KQ - acd 38; acs 4140; bm a5; cce -66; ce -40; pm a5 {1823} Na6 {1630} Nbd7 {554} Nh5 {479} c6 {118} c5 {35} Ne8 {33} h6 {16} Qe8 {9} Bd7 {6} Kh8 {3} Nfd7 {3} Qe7 {2} a6 {2} h5 {2} Bxh3 {1}; pv a5 Be3 Na6 g4 h5 g5 Nd7 a3 Nac5 Qc2 f5 gxf6 Qxf6 Be2 a4 Nb5 Ra5 Nxc7 Nb3 Rd1 Ndc5 Nb5 Ra6 Ng5 Bd7 h4 Bxb5 cxb5 Raa8 O-O Rac8 Bc4 Nd4 Bxd4 exd4 f4 d3 Bxd3 Qxb2 Qxb2 Bxb2 Ne6 Nxe6 dxe6; white_wins 1497; black_wins 995; draws 887; Opening ECO:E90p; King's Indian: 5.Nf3 O-O 6.h3 e5 7.d5; 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.h3 e5 7.d5 *;
rnbqkb1r/1p3ppp/p2ppn2/6B1/3NPP2/2N5/PPP3PP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - acd 42; acs 2713; bm Qb6; c3 "Qb6"; cce 3; ce 0; id "es-dc-neutral.0595"; pm Qb6 {11859} Be7 {4243} Nbd7 {3465} Qc7 {3145} b5 {668} h6 {581} Nc6 {462} Bd7 {161} Qa5 {7} e5 {4} Ke7 {2}; pv Qb6 Qd2 Qxb2 Rb1 Qa3 f5 Nc6 fxe6 fxe6 Nxc6 bxc6 Be2 Be7 O-O O-O Rb3 Qc5+ Be3 Qe5 Bd4 Qa5 Bb6 Qe5 Bd4; white_wins 8774; black_wins 8923; draws 4906; Opening Sicilian Defense: Najdorf Variation. Polugayevsky Variation; 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 b5; CaxtonID: 2152 ECO: B96;
rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/1n1p4/4P3/2PP1P2/8/PP4PP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 38; acs 1344; bm dxe5; c3 "dxe5"; cce -72; ce -34; id "C.A.P. 445103"; pm dxe5 {1612} Bf5 {495} g6 {221} g5 {75} Nc6 {17} e6 {7} c5 {6}; pv dxe5 fxe5 Bf5 Nc3 e6 Nf3 Nc6 Be3 Be7 Be2 O-O Qd2 f6 exf6 Bxf6 O-O Qe7 Rad1 Rad8 h3 Bg6 c5 Nd5 Bf2 Kh8 Nxd5 exd5 Bb5 Qd7 Bg3 Be4 Bxc6 Qxc6 Qa5 b6 Qxa7 bxc5 Qxc7 Qxc7 Bxc7; white_wins 1071; black_wins 695; draws 546; Opening Alekhine Defense: Four Pawns Attack. Trifunovic Variation; 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 Bf5; CaxtonID: 6 ECO: B03;
rnbqkb1r/pppp1ppp/8/4P3/2P1P1n1/8/PP3PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 38; acs 2160; bm Nxe5; cce -65; ce -28; id "C.A.P. 445338"; pm Nxe5 {758} d6 {41} h5 {40} Bb4+ {4} Nxf2 {1}; pv Nxe5 f4 Nec6 Nc3 Bc5 Na4 Bb4+ Bd2 Qe7 Bxb4 Qxb4+ Kf2 Qe7 g3 O-O Nc3 Re8 Nf3 d6 Bg2 Bg4 Re1 a5 Kg1 Nd7 Qd2 Nc5 Nd4 Nxd4 Qxd4 Ne6 Qd2 Nc5 b3 Qd8 h3 Be6 Kh2 f6 Rad1 Qd7 h4; white_wins 216; black_wins 148; draws 104; Opening Budapest Defense: Alekhine Variation. Tartakower Defense; 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.e4 d6; CaxtonID: 233 ECO: A52;
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/8/7N/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - acd 38; acs 4200; bm d4; cce -36; ce -42; id "C.A.P. 445648"; pm g3 {44} d4 {4} e3 {2} Ng5 {1}; pv d4 Nf6 Nf4 c5 e3 Nc6 Bb5 e6 O-O Bd7 dxc5 Bxc5 c4 a6 Bxc6 Bxc6 cxd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qc2 Bb6 Nc3 Bc6 e4 O-O Bf4 Qe7 Rad1 Rfd8 Rfe1 Rac8 Be3 Bxe3 Rxe3 b5 a3 Rxd1+ Qxd1 Rd8; white_wins 17; black_wins 21; draws 12;

What is L. T., what is gambit stuff, and what is analysis?

I migth be too stupid, but I do not see the TC for the games, and also do not quite get why some openings are analysed with 10000 games, while others with just 40.

Thanks very much for this output, but I will still dare note that stats based on game play or any other database are not entirely relevant to the actual game outcome, which does involve perfect play, meaning no weak moves made for the stronger side.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

sorry for posting in this thread, but the threads I should post this position are affected by the crash, so I will post here, sure Dann will have nothing against.

This comes from the so called I-KID, and a game played by Henk.

1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.c4 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5. h4 (presumably e4 is stronger, but a draw at most) f5:

[d]rnbqkbnr/pp5p/3p2p1/2pPpp2/2P4P/2N5/PP2PPP1/R1BQKBNR w KQkq f6 0 6

SF and Komodo give 50-60cps white edge and above, but I say black has a very small edge. Top engine eval above is so wrong, that they display a completely different picture.

Interesting, what an analysis of the above position by SF and Komodo will give, if there is nothing for the search to find, their eval for the particular position is terribly wrong, and also, in a Monte-Carlo or similar stats-based match, no matter the numebr of games, the engines will produce contradictory results/false positives, due to their wrong eval and consequently picking the wrong search path?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Even when playing the best moves for white and the worst for black, Komodo reaches a position like:

[d]1k2bn1r/p1n1q1b1/1p1p2p1/2pPp1P1/2P1P1N1/1PN1B3/PK1QB3/3R4 w - - 0 25

and gives here, for unknown reasons a whopping 100cps white advantage! (I think SF will assess the same)

of course, above position is a simple straightforward draw

With similar eval it is very hard to pick up the best lines of search and choose the objectively best move in a wide range of positions.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

if, after 5...f5, white plays 6.e4, black counters with f4, and after 7.g3, fg3 certainly draws easily, but much stronger is to sacrifice the f4 pawn.

for example, after 7.g3 Nh6! 8.gf4 ef4 9.Bf4 Nf7

[d]rnbqkb1r/pp3n1p/3p2p1/2pP4/2P1PB1P/2N5/PP3P2/R2QKBNR w KQkq - 0 10

black already has an advantage, though current top engines do not want to sacrifice a pawn, seeing neither 7...Nh6, nor that black is better on above diagram.

For reference above position favours black, Houdini 5 output.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

The I-KID is so good for black, that, if white chooses to counter with early piece development instead of supporting the center, after 1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.e4 d6 4.Nc3 g6

[d]rnbqkbnr/pp3p1p/3p2p1/2pPp3/4P3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 5

black is already better.

I checked this line extensively, and black always gets some small advantage, though SF gives 100cps! white edge.

I wonder how mobility, no matter how refined, could possibly resolve this case, but, specific pawn features with highly psqtised eval certainly could do that.

[Henk]

if, after 5...f5, white plays 6.e4, black counters with f4, and after 7.g3, fg3 certainly draws easily, but much stronger is to sacrifice the f4 pawn.

for example, after 7.g3 Nh6! 8.gf4 ef4 9.Bf4 Nf7

[d]rnbqkb1r/pp3n1p/3p2p1/2pP4/2P1PB1P/2N5/PP3P2/R2QKBNR w KQkq - 0 10

black already has an advantage, though current top engines do not want to sacrifice a pawn, seeing neither 7...Nh6, nor that black is better on above diagram.

For reference above position favours black, Houdini 5 output.

Yes Aprils fool.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

if, after 5...f5, white plays 6.e4, black counters with f4, and after 7.g3, fg3 certainly draws easily, but much stronger is to sacrifice the f4 pawn.

for example, after 7.g3 Nh6! 8.gf4 ef4 9.Bf4 Nf7

[d]rnbqkb1r/pp3n1p/3p2p1/2pP4/2P1PB1P/2N5/PP3P2/R2QKBNR w KQkq - 0 10

black already has an advantage, though current top engines do not want to sacrifice a pawn, seeing neither 7...Nh6, nor that black is better on above diagram.

For reference above position favours black, Houdini 5 output.

Yes Aprils fool.

Still ahev not bought H5, does not it see it?
If that is the case, will have to wait H6 in 3 more years...