Strategic position
Moderator: Ras
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glav
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:10 am
- Full name: Giovanni Lavorgna
Strategic position
In a banther blitz video at about 1h and 12', while playing the following position, the strong US GM Sam Shankland makes the interesting point that Black should refrain from developing the bishop on f5. Instead, its plan should be to play as soon as possible the push b5-b4 and then developing the bishop on d7, "within its pawn chain". He also admits that this plan is rather counterintuitive. I tried this position on Stockfish, but the engine wants to actually play Bf5 after 43 plies. I was wondering if anyone with a better hardware can confirm this Stockfish preference even at longer depth.
[d] r1b1kb1r/1p2pppp/1pn2n2/3p4/2pP1B2/2P1PN2/PP2BPPP/RN2K2R b KQkq - 1 8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vgKOs3XucE
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Jouni
- Posts: 3658
- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:15 pm
- Full name: Jouni Uski
Re: Strategic position
[d]r1b1kb1r/1p2pppp/1pn2n2/3p4/2pP1B2/2P1PN2/PP2BPPP/RN2K2R b KQkq - 1 8
Chessdb.cn says 8.-h6 8.-b5 and 8.-Bf5 are equally good. And black has minor advantage.
Chessdb.cn says 8.-h6 8.-b5 and 8.-Bf5 are equally good. And black has minor advantage.
Jouni
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Ajedrecista
- Posts: 2126
- Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:04 pm
- Location: Madrid, Spain.
Re: Strategic position.
Hello:
SF 16 thinks that the top moves are similar regarding eval. Here is my run up to depth 39 with Multi-PV = 3:
Evals are from the side to move POV, so they must be understood as black is slightly better, with identical conclusion than Jouni's post. I guess that it is a matter of taste, like 1.- d4 or 1.- e4 to start a game. Each move follows a different plan, without one being far superior than the rest.
Regards from Spain.
Ajedrecista.
SF 16 thinks that the top moves are similar regarding eval. Here is my run up to depth 39 with Multi-PV = 3:
Code: Select all
FEN: r1b1kb1r/1p2pppp/1pn2n2/3p4/2pP1B2/2P1PN2/PP2BPPP/RN2K2R b KQkq - 1 8
Stockfish_16-windows-x86-64-modern:
[...]
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17/27 00:02 1.867.841 952.980 +0,31 e7e6 a2a3 b6b5 OO b5b4 c3xb4 Bf8xb4 Nf3d2 Ra8a6 Nb1c3 Bb4xc3 b2xc3 Ke8e7 e3e4 Bc8d7 Bf4g5 h7h6 Bg5xf6+ g7xf6 Be2f3 Ke7d6 e4xd5 e6xd5 Ra1b1 Ra6xa3 Rb1xb7 Bd7e6
17/26 00:02 1.867.841 952.980 +0,47 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nb1a3 Ra8a5 Nf3h4 Bf5d7 Bf4c7 Ra5xa3 b2xa3 Nf6e4 Rf1c1 e7e6 f2f3 Ne4f6 Rc1b1 g7g5 Rb1xb5
17/23 00:02 1.867.841 952.980 +0,57 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 b6b5 Nf3e5 h7h5 a2a3 e7e6 Be2f3 h5h4 OO Nc6xe5 Bf4xe5 Nf6d7
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18/22 00:03 3.126.364 956.659 +0,29 h7h5 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Be2d1 Bc8f5 Bd1a4+ Na7c6 Ba4c2 e7e6 Na3b5 Ra8a5 Nb5c7+ Ke8d7 Bc2xf5 e6xf5
18/21 00:03 3.126.364 956.659 +0,51 b6b5 Nb1a3 Ra8xa3 b2xa3 Nf6e4 a3a4 Ne4xc3 a4xb5 Nc3xb5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 a2a3 Ke8d7 Ke1d2 Nb5xa3 Kd2c3 Bc8a6 Ra1a2
18/24 00:03 3.126.364 956.659 +0,56 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 b6b5 Nf3e5 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 e7e6 OO Bf8e7 Bf4g3 Ra8a6 f2f3 OO Ra1e1
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19/31 00:05 4.570.820 933.391 +0,48 h7h5 OO Bc8f5 Nb1d2 b6b5 a2a3 e7e6 Rf1e1 Bf8e7 h2h3 Nf6d7 Be2d1 b5b4 e3e4 d5xe4 Nf3g5 b4xc3 b2xc3
19/28 00:05 4.570.820 933.391 +0,48 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3h4 Bf5d7 Nh4f3 h7h5 Na3b1 Bd7f5 Nb1d2 Na7c6 Nf3h4 Bf5h7 Nh4f3 e7e6 a2a3 Bh7f5 Rf1e1 Bf8e7 h2h3 h5h4
19/26 00:05 4.570.820 933.391 +0,56 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 b6b5 Nf3e5 h7h6 OO e7e6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 Bf8e7 h2h3 Ra8a6 Be2f3 OO h3h4 Nc6xe5 Bf4xe5
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20/26 00:07 7.138.371 916.115 +0,46 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Na3c2 Bc8f5 Be2d1 Na7c6 a2a4 e7e6 Nc2a3 Bf8e7 Nf3e5 OO f2f3 Nf6h5 Ne5d7 Rf8d8 Nd7xb6 Nh5xf4 Nb6xa8
20/28 00:07 7.138.371 916.115 +0,54 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nb1a3 Ra8xa3 b2xa3 Nf6e4 Rf1c1 e7e6 a3a4 Bf8a3 a4xb5 Nc6a7 Be2d1 Ke8e7 Rc1c2 Na7xb5 Nf3h4 Ne4xc3 Nh4xf5+ e6xf5 g2g4 f5xg4 Bd1xg4 Rh8a8 Kg1h1
20/24 00:07 7.138.371 916.115 +0,58 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 b6b5 OO h7h6 Nf3e5 g7g5 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 Bf4e5 Bf8g7 h2h3 OO f2f4 Bf5h7 f4f5
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21/30 00:10 9.135.881 908.139 +0,36 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Na3c2 Bc8f5 Be2d1 Na7c6 a2a4 e7e6 h2h4 Bf8e7 Nf3e5 Bf5h7 Nc2a3 Ra8a5 b2b4 c4xb3/ep Bd1xb3 Be7xa3 Ra1xa3 Ke8e7 Ke1e2
21/25 00:10 9.135.881 908.139 +0,54 b6b5 Nf3e5 h7h5 Nb1d2 Bc8f5 OO e7e6 Be2f3 Bf8d6 h2h4 Ke8e7 Rf1e1 Rh8d8 e3e4 Bf5xe4 Nd2xe4 Nf6xe4 Bf3xe4 d5xe4 Re1xe4 Bd6xe5 d4xe5
21/27 00:10 9.135.881 908.139 +0,55 Bc8f5 OO b6b5 Nb1a3 Ra8xa3 b2xa3 Nf6e4 Rf1c1 e7e6 Nf3h4 g7g5 Bf4e5 Nc6xe5 Nh4xf5 Bf8xa3 f2f3 Ne5d3 Be2xd3 c4xd3 f3xe4 Ba3xc1 Ra1xc1 e6xf5 e4xd5 Ke8d7 Rc1d1 Rh8a8
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22/30 00:12 11.175.578 903.661 +0,32 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Na3c2 Bc8f5 Be2d1 Na7c6 a2a4 e7e6 h2h4 Bf8e7 Nf3e5 Bf5h7 Nc2a3 Ra8a5 Na3b5 OO b2b4 c4xb3/ep Bd1xb3 Rf8a8 Ke1e2 Nc6a7 c3c4 d5xc4 Bb3xc4 Na7xb5 Bc4xb5 Nf6e4
22/26 00:12 11.175.578 903.661 +0,52 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3h4 Bf5d7 Nb1d2 h7h6 Bf4e5 Nf6e4 Nd2xe4 d5xe4 f2f4 e7e6 g2g4 b5b4 Be2xc4 Bf8e7 Nh4g2 Nc6xe5 f4xe5 Ra8c8
22/32 00:12 11.175.578 903.661 +0,58 Bc8f5 OO e7e6 Nb1d2 b6b5 Nf3e5 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 g7g5 Bf4g3 h6h5 h2h3 Bf8e7 f2f3 Rh8g8 e3e4 h5h4 Bg3h2 d5xe4 a3a4 e4e3 a4xb5 Ra8xa1 Rf1xa1 Nc6xe5 d4xe5 e3xd2 e5xf6 Be7xf6 Be2xc4
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23/27 00:14 13.345.764 903.327 +0,39 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Na3c2 Bc8f5 Be2d1 Na7c6 Nf3e5 e7e6 h2h4 b6b5 a2a3 h6h5 f2f3 Bf5h7 Ke1f2 Nf6d7 Ne5xd7 Ke8xd7 e3e4 d5xe4 Nc2e3 e4xf3 Bd1xf3
23/33 00:14 13.345.764 903.327 +0,53 b6b5 Nf3e5 h7h6 Nb1a3 Ra8a5 f2f3 Bc8f5 g2g4 Bf5h7 Ke1d2 Nf6d7 Na3c2 e7e6 a2a3 Ra5a8 Nc2b4 Nc6xe5 Bf4xe5 Nd7xe5
23/22 00:14 13.345.764 903.327 +0,57 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 h7h6 Nf3e5 g7g5 Bf4g3 h6h5 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 Bg3e5 b6b5 a2a4 Bf8g7 OO b5xa4 Be2d1 a4a3 Ra1xa3 Ra8xa3 b2xa3
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24/40 00:27 24.239.825 891.530 +0,34 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Nf6d7 a2a4 f7f5 OO Na7c8 a4a5 f5xe4 Nc4xb6 Nd7xb6 a5xb6 Ra8xa1 Rf1xa1 Bf8e7 Bf4c7 OO Ra1a8 e4xf3 Be2xf3 Bh7d3 b2b3 g7g5 h2h3 Nc8d6 Ra8xf8+ Kg8xf8
24/35 00:27 24.239.825 891.530 +0,46 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 h7h5 Nb1d2 b6b5 OO e7e6 Be2f3 Nc6xe5 d4xe5 Nf6e4 Bf3xe4 d5xe4 a2a4 Ra8xa4 Ra1xa4 b5xa4 Nd2xc4 Bf8e7 h2h4 OO Rf1d1 Be7xh4 Nc4d6 Rf8a8 Rd1d4
24/36 00:27 24.239.825 891.530 +0,48 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 g2g4 Bf5c2 h2h4 h7h6 a2a3 Bf8e7 Rf1c1 g7g5 Rc1xc2 g5xf4 e3xf4 Rh8g8
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25/43 00:35 31.003.554 888.506 +0,42 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Na7c8 Ke1f2 b6b5 Nc4e3 b5b4 c3xb4 Bf8xb4 Be2b5+ Ke8e7 Rh1c1 Nf6e8 Bb5xe8 Rh8xe8 Rc1c7+ Ke7f8 Rc7xb7 Bb4d6 Bf4e5 Re8e7 Be5xd6 Nc8xd6 Rb7b4 Nd6e8
25/38 00:35 31.003.554 888.506 +0,50 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 g7g5 Bf4g3 Bf8e7 h2h3 h6h5 Ra1c1 Rh8g8 Rc1e1 Be7d8 g4xh5 Bh7f5 Kg1g2 Rg8h8 Ne5xc6 b7xc6
25/33 00:35 31.003.554 888.506 +0,53 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 f2f3 Bf5h7 e3e4 b6b5 Na3c2 Na7c8 OO e7e6 b2b3 Nc8d6 Nc2b4 d5xe4 b3xc4 e4xf3 g2xf3 g7g5 Bf4g3 Nd6xc4 a2a4
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26/46 00:41 36.265.282 886.573 +0,37 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Na7c8 Ke1f2 b6b5 Nc4e3 b5b4 c3xb4 Bf8xb4 Be2b5+ Ke8e7 Rh1c1 Nf6e8 a2a3 Bb4a5 Ne3c4 Ba5d8 Bf4d2 f7f5 Bd2b4+ Ke7f6 d4d5 f5xe4 d5d6 Nc8xd6 Nc4xd6 Bd8b6+ Kf2g3
26/34 00:41 36.265.282 886.573 +0,50 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 g7g5 Bf4g3 Bf8e7 Ra1c1 h6h5 h2h3 h5h4 Bg3h2 Rh8g8 Rc1e1 Be7d8 f2f4 Nc6xe5 f4xe5 Nf6e4
26/28 00:41 36.265.282 886.573 +0,53 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 OO b6b5 a2a3 g7g5 Bf4g3 Bf8e7 Ra1c1 h6h5 h2h3 h5h4 Bg3h2 Rh8g8 Rc1e1 Nc6xe5 Bh2xe5 Nf6d7 Be5c7
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27/48 00:51 45.568.419 879.835 +0,32 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Na7c8 Ke1f2 b6b5 Nc4e3 b5b4 c3xb4 Bf8xb4 Be2b5+ Ke8e7 Rh1c1 Nf6e8 a2a3 Bb4a5 Ne3c4 Ba5d8 Bf4d2 f7f5 Bd2b4+ Ke7f6 d4d5 f5xe4 d5d6 Nc8xd6 Nc4xd6 Bd8b6+ Kf2g3 Ne8xd6 Bb4xd6 e4xf3 g2xf3 g7g5 a3a4 Bh7f5 Bd6b4 Bb6d4 Bb4c3
27/43 00:51 45.568.419 879.835 +0,46 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 OO b6b5 a2a3 g7g5 Bf4g3 h6h5 h2h3 Bf8e7 Ra1c1 h5xg4 h3xg4 Nf6e4 Nd2xe4 Bh7xe4 f2f3 Be4h7 Kg1f2 f7f6 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 Rf1h1 OO Rh1h2 Kg8g7 Rc1h1 Bh7g6 f3f4 c6c5 Be2f3 b5b4
27/42 00:51 45.568.419 879.835 +0,50 b6b5 Nb1a3 Ra8a5 Bf4c7 Ra5xa3 b2xa3 Nf6e4 Nf3e5 Ne4xc3 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 Bc7a5 Nc3a4 Be2d1 Bc8f5 Bd1xa4 b5xa4 Ke1d2 e7e5 d4xe5 Bf8xa3 Rh1b1 Bf5xb1 Ra1xb1 Ke8d7 Rb1b7+ Kd7e6 Ba5c3 f7f6 f2f4 f6xe5 Bc3xe5
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28/52 01:05 57.571.172 874.357 +0,25 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Na7c8 Ke1f2 b6b5 Nc4e3 b5b4 c3xb4 Bf8xb4 Be2b5+ Ke8e7 Rh1c1 Nf6e8 a2a3 Bb4a5 Ne3c4 Ba5d8 Bf4d2 f7f5 Bd2b4+ Ke7f6 d4d5 f5xe4 d5d6 Nc8xd6 Nc4xd6 Bd8b6+ Kf2g3 Ne8xd6 Bb4xd6 e4xf3 g2xf3 g7g5 Bd6b4 Bb6d4 Bb4c3 Bd4xc3 Rc1xc3
28/35 01:05 57.571.172 874.357 +0,43 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 f2f3 Bf5h7 e3e4 b6b5 Na3c2 Na7c6 a2a4 b5xa4 Nc2a3 e7e6 Na3b5 Ra8a5 Nb5c7+ Ke8e7 Be2xc4 Nc6xe5 d4xe5 d5xc4 e5xf6+ Ke7xf6 Nc7e8+ Kf6g6 g2g4 e6e5 h2h4
28/41 01:05 57.571.172 874.357 +0,53 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 g7g5 Bf4g3 h6h5 h2h3 Bf8e7 f2f3 h5h4 Bg3h2 OO Ra1c1 Ra8a6 Rc1e1 Rf8a8 e3e4 Be7d6 Ne5xc6 Bd6xh2+ Kg1xh2 b7xc6
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29/40 01:36 83.486.898 866.568 +0,28 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Na7c8 a2a4 b6b5 Nc4e5 Nc8d6 OO b5xa4 c3c4 Nd6xe4 f3xe4 Bf8e7 Ra1a2 Bh7xe4 Rf1a1 Be4c2 Be2f3 Ra8a7 b2b4 Bc2b3 Ra2a3 OO c4c5 Rf8d8 Ra3xb3 a4xb3 Ra1xa7 b3b2
29/37 01:36 83.486.898 866.568 +0,42 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h5 OO b6b5 Be2f3 Bf5g4 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 a2a3 Rh8g8 Bf4g3 g7g5 Rf1e1 Nc6xe5 Bg3xe5 Nf6d7 f2f3 g4xf3 g2g4 Ra8a6 Nd2xf3 f7f6 Be5c7 Bf8e7
29/50 01:36 83.486.898 866.568 +0,52 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h5 Be2f3 Bf5g4 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 a2a3 Rh8g8 Rf1e1 Bf8e7 e3e4 d5xe4 Nd2xe4 Nf6d5 Bf4d2 Nc6xe5 d4xe5 Ke8d7 Ra1d1 Kd7c6 Ne4g5 Be7xg5 Bd2xg5 f7f6 e5xf6 g7xf6
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30/41 01:58 101.934.649 863.977 +0,25 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5g6 Nd2xc4 Nf6d7 a2a4 Bf8e7 Ke1f2 OO Bf4c7 Be7d8 Bc7d6 Rf8e8 h2h4 h6h5 Bd6f4 Na7c8 Nc4e3 Re8e7 Be2b5 Nd7b8
30/39 01:58 101.934.649 863.977 +0,39 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h5 Be2f3 Bf8e7 a2a3 Nc6a5 Bf4g5 Nf6d7 Bg5xe7 Nd7xe5 d4xe5 Ke8xe7 e3e4 d5xe4 Nd2xe4 Na5c6 Ne4g3 Nc6xe5 Bf3xb7 Ra8a7 Ng3xf5+ e6xf5 Bb7f3 Ne5d3 Rf1b1 h5h4 b2b3 h4h3 Bf3e2 h3xg2 Be2xd3 c4xd3 Kg1xg2
30/40 01:58 101.934.649 863.977 +0,42 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 h7h5 Nb1d2 e7e6 OO b6b5 Be2f3 Bf8d6 a2a3 Ke8e7 Ra1e1 Rh8d8 e3e4 Nf6xe4 Nd2xe4 Bf5xe4 Bf3xe4 Bd6xe5 d4xe5 d5xe4 Re1xe4 Rd8d5 f2f3 Ra8d8 g2g4 Rd8h8 h2h4 Ke7d7
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31/42 02:12 113.862.451 859.988 +0,20 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5g6 Nd2xc4 Nf6d7 a2a4 Bf8e7 Ke1f2 OO Bf4c7 Na7c8 a4a5 b6xa5 Nc4xa5 Be7d6 Bc7xd6 Nc8xd6 e4e5 Nd6e8 Na5xb7 Ne8c7 Nb7d6 f7f6 e5xf6 Nd7xf6 Rh1e1 Rf8b8 Nd6c4 Bg6e8 Ra1xa8 Rb8xa8 Nc4e5 Nc7d5
31/37 02:12 113.862.451 859.988 +0,39 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h5 Be2f3 Bf8d6 a2a3 Ke8e7 Ra1e1 Rh8d8 e3e4 Nf6xe4 Nd2xe4 Bf5xe4 Bf3xe4 Bd6xe5 d4xe5 d5xe4 Re1xe4 Rd8d5 Rf1e1 Ke7d8 f2f3 Kd8c7 Bf4e3 Ra8d8
31/35 02:12 113.862.451 859.988 +0,43 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 h7h5 Nb1d2 e7e6 OO b6b5 Be2f3 Bf8d6 a2a3 Ke8e7 Ra1e1 Rh8d8 e3e4 Nf6xe4 Nd2xe4 Bf5xe4 Bf3xe4 Bd6xe5 d4xe5 d5xe4 Re1xe4 Rd8d5 h2h4 Ke7e8 f2f3 Ke8d7 Rf1f2 Nc6e7 g2g4 Ra8h8
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32/44 02:47 142.523.050 851.290 +0,30 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Nf6d7 a2a4 Na7c6 OO f7f5 e4xf5 Bh7xf5 Nc4e3 Nd7f6 Ne3xf5 e6xf5 Rf1e1 Ke8d8 Be2c4 g7g5 Re1e6 Nf6d7 Bf4g3 f5f4 Bg3f2 Rh8h7 Bc4b5 Rh7e7 Ra1e1 Re7xe6 Re1xe6 Kd8c7 g2g3 Nc6e7 g3xf4 g5xf4
32/49 02:47 142.523.050 851.290 +0,37 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 Bf8e7 h2h4 g7g5 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bf4g3 Nf6e4 Nd2xe4 Bh7xe4 f2f3 Be4h7 Kg1f2 f7f6 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 Rf1h1 Ke8f7 f3f4 g5xf4 Bg3xf4 Bh7c2 Rh1h5 Rh8g8 Ra1h1 Bc2g6 Rh5h6 Kf7e8 Be2f3 Ra8c8 Rh6h8 Ke8d7
32/43 02:47 142.523.050 851.290 +0,39 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 h7h5 Nb1d2 e7e6 OO b6b5 a2a3 Nf6e4 Nd2xe4 Bf5xe4 Ne5f3 Bf8e7 h2h4 Be4f5 Rf1e1 Ke8d7 Bf4g3 Ra8a5 Ra1c1 Ra5a6 Rc1a1 Nc6a5 Nf3d2 g7g5 h4xg5 Be7xg5 Bg3e5 f7f6 Be5h2
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33/48 03:31 177.560.865 841.157 +0,29 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Nf6d7 a2a4 Na7c6 OO f7f5 e4xf5 Bh7xf5 Nc4e3 Bf8e7 Be2c4 Rh8f8 Rf1e1 Ke8d8 Bf4g3 Be7g5 Ne3f1 Rf8e8 h2h4 Bg5f6 Nf1e3 Bf5g6 Bc4b5 Nc6a7 Bb5c4 Bg6f7 Ne3g4 Na7c6 Ng4xf6 Nd7xf6
33/52 03:31 177.560.865 841.157 +0,38 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 g7g5 Bf4g3 h6h5 h2h3 Bf8e7 Ra1e1 h5h4 Bg3h2 OO Be2f3 Nc6xe5 Bh2xe5 Nf6d7 Be5h2 Bh7d3 Bf3e2 Nd7b6 Be2xd3 c4xd3 e3e4 b5b4 a3xb4 d5xe4 Nd2xe4 Ra8a2 Re1d1
33/49 03:31 177.560.865 841.157 +0,43 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 OO b6b5 a2a3 Bf8e7 h2h4 g7g5 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bf4g3 Nf6e4 Nd2xe4 Bh7xe4 f2f3 Be4h7 Kg1g2 f7f6 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 f3f4 g5xf4 e3xf4 Bh7e4+ Be2f3 f6f5 Rf1h1 Ke8f7 Rh1xh8 Ra8xh8 Bf3xe4 d5xe4 g4g5 c6c5 d4xc5 Be7xc5 a3a4 b5xa4 Ra1xa4 Rh8b8 Ra4xc4 Rb8xb2+ Kg2h3
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34/50 04:44 235.332.861 828.388 +0,32 h7h6 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5h7 Nd2xc4 Nf6d7 a2a4 f7f5 OO Na7c6 Bf4c7 Ra8c8 Bc7xb6 f5xe4 Ra1e1 Nc6d8 f3xe4 Bh7xe4 Be2h5+ g7g6 Re1xe4 g6xh5 Bb6xd8 Ke8xd8 Nc4e5 Rh8g8 Ne5f7+ Kd8e7 d4d5 e6e5 Nf7xe5 Ke7d8 Rf1f5 Nd7xe5
34/45 04:44 235.332.861 828.388 +0,36 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 a2a3 g7g5 Bf4g3 h6h5 h2h3 Bf8e7 Ra1e1 h5h4 Bg3h2 OO Be2f3 Nc6xe5 Bh2xe5 Bh7d3 Be5xf6 Be7xf6 Bf3e2 Bd3h7 Be2f3 Rf8d8 Re1a1 Bf6e7 Rf1e1 Be7d6 Ra1d1 b5b4 a3xb4 Ra8a2 e3e4 Bd6b8 e4xd5 e6xd5 Nd2f1 Ra2xb2 Nf1e3
34/56 04:44 235.332.861 828.388 +0,38 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 Nc6xe5 Bf4xe5 e7e6 OO b6b5 Nb1d2 b5b4 Be5xf6 g7xf6 e3e4 Bf5xe4 Nd2xe4 d5xe4 Be2xc4 f6f5 f2f3 Ra8c8 Bc4b5+ Ke8e7 Ra1e1 e4xf3 Rf1xf3 Ke7f6 Re1d1 h7h5 c3xb4 Bf8xb4 Rf3b3 Bb4d6 a2a4 Rc8c2
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35/49 06:40 326.274.405 815.133 +0,27 h7h5 Nb1d2 Bc8f5 OO b6b5 a2a3 h5h4 h2h3 e7e6 Rf1e1 Ke8d7 Be2f1 Ra8a5 Bf1e2 Bf5g6 Ra1c1 Ra5a6 Be2d1 Ra6a8 Bd1c2 Bg6xc2 Rc1xc2 Rh8h5 Bf4g5 Nf6e4 Bg5xh4
35/43 06:40 326.274.405 815.133 +0,35 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 a2a3 Nf6d7 Nf3d2 h7h5 Be2f3 Nd7f6 Rf1e1 e7e6 Bf4g5 Nf6e4 Bf3xe4 d5xe4 Bg5f4 f7f6 h2h4 Bf8e7 Nd2f1 Ke8d7 Nb1d2 Rh8g8 Bf4g3 g7g5 h4xg5 f6xg5 a3a4 Ra8xa4
35/43 06:40 326.274.405 815.133 +0,35 Bc8f5 Nf3e5 e7e6 Nb1d2 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 OO g7g5 Bf4g3 b6b5 a2a3 h6h5 h2h3 Bf8e7 Ra1e1 h5h4 Bg3h2 OO Be2f3 Nc6xe5 Bh2xe5 Bh7d3 Be5xf6 Be7xf6 Bf3e2 Bd3h7 Be2f3 Rf8d8 Re1a1 Bf6e7 Rf1e1 Be7d6 Ra1d1 b5b4 a3xb4 Ra8a2 e3e4 Bd6f4 e4xd5 e6xd5 Nd2f1 Ra2xb2
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36/43 08:01 391.275.724 812.240 +0,23 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5g6 Ke1f2 Bf8e7 Nd2xc4 Na7c8 a2a4 OO a4a5 Nf6d7 a5xb6 Nc8xb6 Bf4d6 Ra8e8 Bd6xe7 Re8xe7 Nc4d6 e6e5 Ra1a7 f7f5 e4xf5 Bg6xf5 Ra7xb7 e5xd4 c3xd4 Bf5h7 Rh1a1 Re7e6 Nd6b5 Nd7f6
36/51 08:01 391.275.724 812.240 +0,24 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 h7h6 OO b6b5 a2a3 e7e6 h2h3 Bf8e7 Nf3e5 Ra8a6 Be2f3 OO Rf1e1 Rf8a8 e3e4 d5xe4 Nd2xe4 Nf6d5 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 Bf4e5 Bf5g6 Ra1c1 Nd5b6 Re1e2 Nb6a4 Rc1e1 Bg6h7 g2g4
36/43 08:01 391.275.724 812.240 +0,24 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nb1d2 e7e6 a2a3 h7h6 h2h3 Bf5h7 Nf3e5 g7g5 Bf4h2 h6h5 f2f3 Bf8d6 e3e4 h5h4 e4xd5 Nf6xd5 a3a4 Bd6xe5 d4xe5 Ra8xa4 Ra1xa4 b5xa4 Nd2xc4 Nd5f4 Rf1e1 Ke8e7 Be2f1 Bh7c2 Nc4d6 f7f5 Nd6xb7
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37/44 10:15 497.396.066 808.387 +0,21 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 b6b5 OO e7e6 a2a3 Bf8e7 Nf3e5 Ra8a6 h2h3 h7h5 Be2f3 Rh8g8 h3h4 Nf6e4 Nd2xe4 Bf5xe4 Bf3xe4 d5xe4 Bf4g3 g7g5 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 h4xg5 Be7xg5 Bg3f4 h5h4 Kg1h2 Ke8e7 Ra1e1 Bg5xf4+ e3xf4
37/55 10:15 497.396.066 808.387 +0,25 h7h6 OO Bc8f5 Nb1d2 b6b5 a2a3 e7e6 h2h3 Bf8e7 Nf3e5 g7g5 Bf4h2 h6h5 f2f3 Bf5h7 e3e4 h5h4 Ra1e1 OO Ne5g4 Nf6xg4 h3xg4 Be7f6 Bh2d6 Rf8d8 e4e5 Bf6e7 Bd6xe7 Nc6xe7 f3f4 g5xf4 Rf1xf4 b5b4 c3xb4 c4c3 b2xc3 Ra8xa3 Nd2f3 Rd8c8 Re1f1 Rc8xc3 Nf3xh4 Ne7g6 Nh4xg6 Bh7xg6 Rf4f3 Kg8g7 Rf3xc3 Ra3xc3
37/53 10:15 497.396.066 808.387 +0,26 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nb1d2 h7h6 a2a3 e7e6 h2h3 Bf8e7 Nf3e5 Nf6e4 Nd2xe4 Bf5xe4 Be2f3 Be4xf3 Ne5xf3 g7g5 Bf4h2 h6h5 g2g4 Ke8d7 Kg1g2 Rh8h6 Rf1e1 Ra8h8 Ra1d1 Kd7c8 Bh2g3 Be7d8 Nf3e5 Rh6h7 e3e4 h5xg4 h3xg4 d5xe4
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38/55 12:12 588.352.210 803.810 +0,31 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 h7h6 OO b6b5 a2a3 e7e6 h2h3 Nf6d7 Nf3e5 g7g5 Ne5xd7 Ke8xd7 Bf4h2 h6h5 g2g4 Bf5g6 Kg1g2 Bf8e7 Rf1h1 f7f5 Ra1e1 h5xg4 h3xg4 Be7xa3 b2xa3 Ra8xa3 Re1b1 b5b4 c3xb4 f5f4 b4b5 Nc6xd4 e3xd4 Ra3a2 Bh2xf4 Rh8xh1 Rb1xh1 g5xf4
38/58 12:12 588.352.210 803.810 +0,34 h7h6 Nb1a3 Nc6a7 Nf3d2 Bc8f5 f2f3 e7e6 Na3xc4 d5xc4 e3e4 Bf5g6 Ke1f2 Na7c8 Nd2xc4 Bf8e7 a2a4 OO a4a5 Nf6d7 Bf4c7 b6xa5 Nc4xa5 Be7d6 Bc7xd6 Nc8xd6 e4e5 Nd6c8 Na5xb7 Ra8b8 Be2a6 f7f6 e5xf6 Nd7xf6 Ra1a2 e6e5 d4xe5 Nf6g4+ Kf2g3 Ng4xe5 b2b4 Nc8b6 Nb7c5 Bg6f7 Ra2d2 Nb6c4 Rd2e2 Rb8b6 Rh1e1
38/55 12:12 588.352.210 803.810 +0,35 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nb1d2 h7h6 a2a3 e7e6 h2h3 Nf6d7 Nf3e5 g7g5 Ne5xd7 Ke8xd7 Bf4h2 h6h5 Rf1e1 g5g4 h3xg4 h5xg4 e3e4 d5xe4 a3a4 Bf8h6 Nd2f1 Ra8xa4 Ra1xa4 b5xa4 Be2xc4 Rh8c8 Bc4b5 a4a3 b2xa3 Kd7e7 Bb5xc6 Rc8xc6 Re1b1 b7b6 Rb1b3 e4e3 Nf1xe3 Bh6xe3 f2xe3 Bf5c2 Rb3b2 Rc6xc3
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39/49 14:04 674.297.928 798.505 +0,32 h7h6 Nb1d2 Bc8f5 OO b6b5 a2a3 e7e6 h2h3 Nf6d7 Nf3e5 g7g5 Ne5xd7 Ke8xd7 Bf4h2 h6h5 g2g4 Bf5g6 Kg1g2 Bf8e7 Rf1h1 Be7d6 Bh2xd6 Kd7xd6 Be2f3 e6e5 g4xh5 Bg6xh5 Bf3xh5 Rh8xh5 d4xe5+ Nc6xe5 Nd2f3 Ne5d3 Nf3d4 Kd6e5 Ra1b1 f7f5 Nd4xb5 Ra8h8 b2b3 g5g4 h3xg4 Rh5xh1 Rb1xh1 Rh8xh1
39/53 14:04 674.297.928 798.505 +0,35 Bc8f5 Nb1d2 b6b5 Nf3e5 h7h6 g2g4 Bf5h7 OO e7e6 a2a3 Bf8e7 h2h4 g7g5 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bf4g3 Nf6e4 Nd2xe4 Bh7xe4 f2f3 Be4h7 Kg1f2 f7f6 Ne5xc6 b7xc6 Rf1h1 Ke8f7 e3e4 c6c5 e4xd5 e6xd5 d4xc5 Be7xc5+ Kf2g2 Bh7c2 Rh1xh8 Ra8xh8 Be2d1 Bc2a4 Bd1xa4 b5xa4 Ra1d1 Rh8d8 f3f4
39/55 14:04 674.297.928 798.505 +0,35 b6b5 OO Bc8f5 Nb1d2 e7e6 a2a3 h7h6 h2h3 Nf6d7 Nf3e5 g7g5 Ne5xd7 Ke8xd7 Bf4h2 h6h5 g2g4 Bf5g6 Kg1g2 Bf8e7 Rf1h1 Be7d6 Bh2xd6 Kd7xd6 Be2f3 e6e5 g4xh5 Bg6d3 Ra1g1 b5b4 d4xe5+ Nc6xe5 c3xb4 f7f5 Kg2h2 Ra8g8 Bf3d1 f5f4 e3xf4 g5xf4 Rg1xg8 Rh8xg8 Rh1g1 Rg8h8Regards from Spain.
Ajedrecista.
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glav
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:10 am
- Full name: Giovanni Lavorgna
Re: Strategic position
Thanks for the variations. I see your point about playing style, but what strikes me is that, in all your variations, the engine wants to put the bishop on f5, which is something that GM Shankland strongly advises against.
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CornfedForever
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:08 am
- Full name: Brian D. Smith
Re: Strategic position
Humans 'understand' positions. Engines...just calculate or go on NNUE eval.
This is similar to an old Capablanca (as black game). I don't think there is supposed to be enough of a future on F5. I mean...Black really wants to play ...e6.
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glav
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:10 am
- Full name: Giovanni Lavorgna
Re: Strategic position
I agree with you but, you know, today engines usually can spot plans much better than humans, if given enough time. On the other hand strategy turns out to be often very deep tactics. For this reason, I was asking if someone could run for enough time this position, in order to see if it reproduces GM Shankland idea.CornfedForever wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:36 pmHumans 'understand' positions. Engines...just calculate or go on NNUE eval.
This is similar to an old Capablanca (as black game). I don't think there is supposed to be enough of a future on F5. I mean...Black really wants to play ...e6.
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Eelco de Groot
- Posts: 4671
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
- Full name: Eelco de Groot
Re: Strategic position
Just some loose comments about the opening:
[pgn][Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. c3 Qb6 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qxb6 axb6 8. Be2 [/pgn]
For those who want to look up the opening, ChessX says it is the Trompovsky with 2...d5 I read the Trompovsky was played by Magnus Carlsen in his WM match against Karjakin, in 2016, in India (Maybe that name will change to Bharat?).
Computers can play things that are hard to play for humans. They are not bothered with concepts. If Bf5 is not strategic, does not mean White suddenly equalizes or even is better when before Black had slight advantage. If the computer does not see a problem with Black's setup, it also does not see how to 'punish' a 'mistake' with White.
If something is not in the eval, computer analysis may not help you. That was so before NNUE but it has not changed totally I think. If NNUE does not see something, it may not be trained enough. Unless refutation is within the horizon and computer can eventually see its mistake you will not know. And the human assessment may still be wrong too...
This is a possible line with Sun engine. Eval about -0.33 for White at the end, for what it is worth.
[pgn] [Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. c3 Qb6 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qxb6 axb6 8. Be2 Bf5 $5 9. Nbd2 { transposes with 10.O-O} 9... h6 { this can transpose with 11...e6} 10. O-O b5 11. a3 e6 12. h3 Nd7 13. Ne5 g5 14. Nxd7 Kxd7 15. Bh2 h5 16. Rfe1 $13 { This would be Sun SE's line[%eval -0.33]} [/pgn]
[pgn][Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. c3 Qb6 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qxb6 axb6 8. Be2 [/pgn]
For those who want to look up the opening, ChessX says it is the Trompovsky with 2...d5 I read the Trompovsky was played by Magnus Carlsen in his WM match against Karjakin, in 2016, in India (Maybe that name will change to Bharat?).
Computers can play things that are hard to play for humans. They are not bothered with concepts. If Bf5 is not strategic, does not mean White suddenly equalizes or even is better when before Black had slight advantage. If the computer does not see a problem with Black's setup, it also does not see how to 'punish' a 'mistake' with White.
If something is not in the eval, computer analysis may not help you. That was so before NNUE but it has not changed totally I think. If NNUE does not see something, it may not be trained enough. Unless refutation is within the horizon and computer can eventually see its mistake you will not know. And the human assessment may still be wrong too...
This is a possible line with Sun engine. Eval about -0.33 for White at the end, for what it is worth.
[pgn] [Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. c3 Qb6 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qxb6 axb6 8. Be2 Bf5 $5 9. Nbd2 { transposes with 10.O-O} 9... h6 { this can transpose with 11...e6} 10. O-O b5 11. a3 e6 12. h3 Nd7 13. Ne5 g5 14. Nxd7 Kxd7 15. Bh2 h5 16. Rfe1 $13 { This would be Sun SE's line[%eval -0.33]} [/pgn]
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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CornfedForever
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:08 am
- Full name: Brian D. Smith
Re: Strategic position
Oh, yes, I know what you were asking. It would be interesting to know I guess.glav wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:48 pmI agree with you but, you know, today engines usually can spot plans much better than humans, if given enough time. On the other hand strategy turns out to be often very deep tactics. For this reason, I was asking if someone could run for enough time this position, in order to see if it reproduces GM Shankland idea.CornfedForever wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:36 pmHumans 'understand' positions. Engines...just calculate or go on NNUE eval.
This is similar to an old Capablanca (as black game). I don't think there is supposed to be enough of a future on F5. I mean...Black really wants to play ...e6.
I am just one who thinks that humans can understand and communicate concepts and play accordingly - telling you why they chose a plan. An engine...just computes and assigns an evaluation and picks the biggest edge it can find. It can't really tell anyone 'why' it did anything. Anyway, I have to respectfully disagree with you when you say todays engines "can usually spot plans...". That's not really what they do.
As an aside, I always chuckle when some commentator shouts that someone played an idea learned from Alpha Zero. It's like they never saw any of the games where...lets say Larsen (among others) would play a4 or h4 in a position and it not even be with 'mate' in mind...just a bit of a bind with a long term idea in mind.
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glav
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:10 am
- Full name: Giovanni Lavorgna
Re: Strategic position
Thanks for your insights, Bryan. I see you are a very strong player and I do respect your point. But, then, which one is the reason why today top players are using more and more computer resources?
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CornfedForever
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:08 am
- Full name: Brian D. Smith
Re: Strategic position
Why top GM's (and others) push around (or pay others to) engines to look for opening wrinkles here and there has nothing to do with the only thing I am talking about - that engines do not 'plan' - they calculate and use an evaluation function.
This goes for NNUE as well...it's kind of like Quantum Mechanics...it 'works'. But it's up to humans to try to find out why or at least understand what has happened to a degree that they can theorize and/or then use it to some benefit. Thus the phrase famous phrase "shut up and calculate".