question about a study BY Troitsky

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Dann Corbit
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question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by Dann Corbit »

Are there any computer proofs of this study? Reverse analysis is fine.

YACPDB ID >>280653
7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - -

---
authors:
Troitsky, Alexey Alekseevich
source:
name: Deutsche Schachzeitung
date:
year: 1914
algebraic:
white: [Kh8, Rh1, Rg1, Ba5, Sd3]
black: [Kg3, Rh5, Rf2, Bh4, Bf3, Sg2, Se4, Ph7, Pg6, Pg5, Pg4, Pf7, Pe2, Pd6]
stipulation: "+"
solution: |
1. Be1 Rh6 2. Kg7 Rh5 3. Kf8 Rh6 4. Ke7 Rh5 5. Kd8 Rh6
6. Kc8 Rh5 7. Kc7 Rh6 8. Kd8 Rh5 9. Ke7 Rh6 10. Kf8
Rh5 11. Kg7 d5 12. Kf8 Rh6 13. Ke7 Rh5 14. Kd8 Rh6 15.
Kc7 Rh5 16. Kb8 Rh6 17. Ka7 Rh5 18. Ka8 Rh6 19. Kb8
Rh5 20. Kc7 Rh6 21. Kd8 Rh5 22. Ke7 Rh6 23. Kf8 Rh5
24. Kg7 d4 25. Kf8 Rh6 26. Ke7 Rh5 27. Kd8 Rh6 28. Kc7
Rh5 29. Kb6 Rh6 30. Ka5 Rh5 31. Kb4 Rh6 32. Ka3 Rh5
33. Kb2 Rh6 34. Kc2 Rh5 35. Kc1 Rh6 36. Kb2 Rh5 37.
Ka3 Rh6 38. Kb4 Rh5 39. Ka5 Rh6 40. Kb6 Rh5 41. Kc7
Rh6 42. Kd8 Rh5 43. Ke7 Rh6 44. Kf8 Rh5 45. Kg7 f6 46.
Kf8 Rh6 47. Kg8 Rh5 48. Kg7 f5 49. Kf8 Rh6 50. Ke7 Rh5
51. Kd8 Rh6 52. Kc7 Rh5 53. Kb6 Rh6 54. Ka5 Rh5 55.
Kb4 Rh6 56. Ka3 Rh5 57. Kb2 Rh6 58. Kc2 Rh5 59. Kc1
Rh6 60. Kb2 Rh5 61. Ka3 Rh6 62. Kb4 Rh5 63. Ka5 Rh6
64. Kb6 Rh5 65. Kc7 Rh6 66. Kd8 Rh5 67. Ke7 Rh6 68.
Kf8 Rh5 69. Kg7 f4 70. Kf8 Rh6 71. Ke7 Rh5 72. Kd8 Rh6
73. Kc7 Rh5 74. Kb6 Rh6 75. Ka5 Rh5 76. Kb4 Rh6 77.
Ka3 Rh5 78. Kb2 Rh6 79. Kc2 Rh5 80. Kc1 Rh6 81. Kb2
Rh5 82. Ka3 Rh6 83. Kb4 Rh5 84. Ka5 Rh6 85. Kb6 Rh5
86. Kc7 Rh6 87. Kd8 Rh5 88. Ke7 Rh6 89. Kf8 Rh5 90.
Kg7 1-0
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peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by peter »

Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:06 am Are there any computer proofs of this study? Reverse analysis is fine.

YACPDB ID >>280653
7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - -

---
authors:
Troitsky, Alexey Alekseevich
source:
name: Deutsche Schachzeitung
date:
year: 1914
algebraic:
white: [Kh8, Rh1, Rg1, Ba5, Sd3]
black: [Kg3, Rh5, Rf2, Bh4, Bf3, Sg2, Se4, Ph7, Pg6, Pg5, Pg4, Pf7, Pe2, Pd6]
stipulation: "+"
solution: |
1. Be1 Rh6 2. Kg7 Rh5 3. Kf8 Rh6 4. Ke7 Rh5 5. Kd8 Rh6
6. Kc8 Rh5 7. Kc7 Rh6 8. Kd8 Rh5 9. Ke7 Rh6 10. Kf8
Rh5 11. Kg7 d5 12. Kf8 Rh6 13. Ke7 Rh5 14. Kd8 Rh6 15.
Kc7 Rh5 16. Kb8 Rh6 17. Ka7 Rh5 18. Ka8 Rh6 19. Kb8
Rh5 20. Kc7 Rh6 21. Kd8 Rh5 22. Ke7 Rh6 23. Kf8 Rh5
24. Kg7 d4 25. Kf8 Rh6 26. Ke7 Rh5 27. Kd8 Rh6 28. Kc7
Rh5 29. Kb6 Rh6 30. Ka5 Rh5 31. Kb4 Rh6 32. Ka3 Rh5
33. Kb2 Rh6 34. Kc2 Rh5 35. Kc1 Rh6 36. Kb2 Rh5 37.
Ka3 Rh6 38. Kb4 Rh5 39. Ka5 Rh6 40. Kb6 Rh5 41. Kc7
Rh6 42. Kd8 Rh5 43. Ke7 Rh6 44. Kf8 Rh5 45. Kg7 f6 46.
Kf8 Rh6 47. Kg8 Rh5 48. Kg7 f5 49. Kf8 Rh6 50. Ke7 Rh5
51. Kd8 Rh6 52. Kc7 Rh5 53. Kb6 Rh6 54. Ka5 Rh5 55.
Kb4 Rh6 56. Ka3 Rh5 57. Kb2 Rh6 58. Kc2 Rh5 59. Kc1
Rh6 60. Kb2 Rh5 61. Ka3 Rh6 62. Kb4 Rh5 63. Ka5 Rh6
64. Kb6 Rh5 65. Kc7 Rh6 66. Kd8 Rh5 67. Ke7 Rh6 68.
Kf8 Rh5 69. Kg7 f4 70. Kf8 Rh6 71. Ke7 Rh5 72. Kd8 Rh6
73. Kc7 Rh5 74. Kb6 Rh6 75. Ka5 Rh5 76. Kb4 Rh6 77.
Ka3 Rh5 78. Kb2 Rh6 79. Kc2 Rh5 80. Kc1 Rh6 81. Kb2
Rh5 82. Ka3 Rh6 83. Kb4 Rh5 84. Ka5 Rh6 85. Kb6 Rh5
86. Kc7 Rh6 87. Kd8 Rh5 88. Ke7 Rh6 89. Kf8 Rh5 90.
Kg7 1-0
Huntsman gives +152- eval at once at start with empty hash, going into the given line brings up DTM- output very soon. Here's output after some further rather quick forward- backward, so DTM will be somewhat too long maybe yet still:

7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

1.Be1 d5 2.Kg7 d4 3.Kf8 Rh6 4.Ke7 Rh5 5.Kd8 Rh6 6.Kc7 Rh5 7.Kb6 Rh6 8.Ka5 Rh5 9.Kb4 Rh6 10.Ka3 Rh5 11.Kb2 Rh6 12.Kc2 Rh5 13.Kc1 Rh6 14.Kb2 Rh5 15.Ka3 f6 16.Kb4 Rh6 17.Ka5 Rh5 18.Kb6 Rh6 19.Kc7 Rh5 20.Kd8 Rh6 21.Ke7 Rh5 22.Kf8 Rh6 23.Kg7 Rh5 24.Kg8 Rh6 25.Kf8 Rh5 26.Kg7 f5 27.Kf8 Rh6 28.Ke7 Rh5 29.Kd8 Rh6 30.Kc7 Rh5 31.Kb6 Rh6 32.Ka5 Rh5 33.Kb4 Rh6 34.Ka3 Rh5 35.Kb2 Rh6 36.Kc2 Rh5 37.Kc1 Rh6 38.Kb2 Rh5 39.Ka3 Rh6 40.Kb4 Rh5 41.Ka5 Rh6 42.Kb6 Rh5 43.Kc7 Rh6 44.Kd8 Rh5 45.Ke7 Rh6 46.Kf8 Rh5 47.Kg7 f4 48.Kf8 Rh6 49.Ke7 Rh5 50.Kd8 Rh6 51.Kc7 Rh5 52.Kb6 Rh6 53.Ka5 Rh5 54.Kb4 Rh6 55.Ka3 Rh5 56.Kb2
+- (#70) Depth: 111/111 00:00:12 442MN

Letting it be completed by the engine from end of that line, makes it this one:

[pgn][Event "Backward"] [Site "?"] [Date "now"] [Round "?"] [White "Troitzky=A"] [Black "Huntsman"] [Result "1-0"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - 0 1"] [PlyCount "139"] [EventDate "now"] 1. Be1 d5 2. Kg7 d4 3. Kf8 Rh6 4. Ke7 Rh5 5. Kd8 Rh6 6. Kc7 Rh5 7. Kb6 Rh6 8. Ka5 Rh5 9. Kb4 Rh6 10. Ka3 Rh5 11. Kb2 Rh6 12. Kc2 Rh5 13. Kc1 Rh6 14. Kb2 Rh5 15. Ka3 f6 16. Kb4 Rh6 17. Ka5 Rh5 18. Kb6 Rh6 19. Kc7 Rh5 20. Kd8 Rh6 21. Ke7 Rh5 22. Kf8 Rh6 23. Kg7 Rh5 24. Kg8 Rh6 25. Kf8 Rh5 26. Kg7 f5 27. Kf8 Rh6 28. Ke7 Rh5 29. Kd8 Rh6 30. Kc7 Rh5 31. Kb6 Rh6 32. Ka5 Rh5 33. Kb4 Rh6 34. Ka3 Rh5 35. Kb2 Rh6 36. Kc2 Rh5 37. Kc1 Rh6 38. Kb2 Rh5 39. Ka3 Rh6 40. Kb4 Rh5 41. Ka5 Rh6 42. Kb6 Rh5 43. Kc7 Rh6 44. Kd8 Rh5 45. Ke7 Rh6 46. Kf8 Rh5 47. Kg7 f4 48. Kf8 Rh6 49. Ke7 Rh5 50. Kd8 Rh6 51. Kc7 Rh5 52. Kb6 Rh6 53. Ka5 Rh5 54. Kb4 Rh6 55. Ka3 Rh5 56. Kb2 Rh6 57. Kc2 Rh5 58. Kc1 Rh6 59. Kb2 Rh5 60. Ka3 Rh6 61. Kb4 Rh5 62. Ka5 Rh6 63. Kb6 Rh5 64. Kc7 Rh6 65. Kd8 Rh5 66. Ke7 Rh6 67. Kf8 Rh5 68. Kg7 Rh6 69. Kxh6 Nf6 70. Bxf2# 1-0 [/pgn]

The 5.Kd8 in solution- line you gave is much too long as for Huntsman's backward anyhow, Kxf7+ there makes it about as short as best DTM given in HHdb, where a "cook" at 3.Kf8 is shown with a #39- line instead and 3.Kxf7 there:

[pgn][Event "Deutsche Schachzeitung"] [Site "?"] [Date "1914.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Troitzky=A"] [Black "(+0877.07h8g3) (v) U2"] [Result "1-0"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - 0 1"] [PlyCount "183"] [EventDate "1914.??.??"] {stipulation: mate in 92. Deutsche Schachzeitung/6. U2: Wiereyn=P Computerschaak=1 3/2010.} 1. Be1 Rh6 2. Kg7 Rh5 3. Kf8 (3. Kxf7 $1 {<cook PW>} Rh6 4. Kf8 Rh5 5. Kg7 d5 6. Kf8 Rh6 7. Ke7 Rh5 8. Kd8 Rh6 9. Kc7 Rh5 10. Kb6 Rh6 11. Kc6 Rh5 12. Kc7 Rh6 13. Kd8 Rh5 14. Ke7 Rh6 15. Kf8 Rh5 16. Kg7 d4 17. Kf8 Rh6 18. Ke7 Rh5 19. Kd8 Rh6 20. Kc7 Rh5 21. Kb6 Rh6 22. Ka5 Rh5 23. Kb4 Rh6 24. Ka3 Rh5 25. Kb2 Rh6 26. Kc1 Rh5 27. Kc2 Rh6 28. Kb2 Rh5 29. Ka3 Rh6 30. Kb4 Rh5 31. Ka5 Rh6 32. Kb6 Rh5 33. Kc7 Rh6 34. Kd8 Rh5 35. Ke7 Rh6 36. Kf8 Rh5 37. Kg7 h6 38. Kf8 Nf6 39. Bxf2#) 3... Rh6 4. Ke7 Rh5 5. Kd8 Rh6 6. Kc8 Rh5 7. Kc7 Rh6 8. Kd8 Rh5 9. Ke7 Rh6 10. Kf8 Rh5 11. Kg7 d5 12. Kf8 Rh6 13. Ke7 Rh5 14. Kd8 Rh6 15. Kc7 Rh5 16. Kb8 Rh6 17. Ka7 Rh5 18. Ka8 Rh6 19. Kb8 Rh5 20. Kc7 Rh6 21. Kd8 Rh5 22. Ke7 Rh6 23. Kf8 Rh5 24. Kg7 d4 25. Kf8 Rh6 26. Ke7 Rh5 27. Kd8 Rh6 28. Kc7 Rh5 29. Kb6 Rh6 30. Ka5 Rh5 31. Kb4 Rh6 32. Ka3 Rh5 33. Kb2 Rh6 34. Kc2 Rh5 35. Kc1 Rh6 36. Kb2 Rh5 37. Ka3 Rh6 38. Kb4 Rh5 39. Ka5 Rh6 40. Kb6 Rh5 41. Kc7 Rh6 42. Kd8 Rh5 43. Ke7 Rh6 44. Kf8 Rh5 45. Kg7 f6 46. Kf8 Rh6 47. Kg8 Rh5 48. Kg7 f5 49. Kf8 Rh6 50. Ke7 Rh5 51. Kd8 Rh6 52. Kc7 Rh5 53. Kb6 Rh6 54. Ka5 Rh5 55. Kb4 Rh6 56. Ka3 Rh5 57. Kb2 Rh6 58. Kc2 Rh5 59. Kc1 Rh6 60. Kb2 Rh5 61. Ka3 Rh6 62. Kb4 Rh5 63. Ka5 Rh6 64. Kb6 Rh5 65. Kc7 Rh6 66. Kd8 Rh5 67. Ke7 Rh6 68. Kf8 Rh5 69. Kg7 f4 70. Kf8 Rh6 71. Ke7 Rh5 72. Kd8 Rh6 73. Kc7 Rh5 74. Kb6 Rh6 75. Ka5 Rh5 76. Kb4 Rh6 77. Ka3 Rh5 78. Kb2 Rh6 79. Kc2 Rh5 80. Kc1 Rh6 81. Kb2 Rh5 82. Ka3 Rh6 83. Kb4 Rh5 84. Ka5 Rh6 85. Kb6 Rh5 86. Kc7 Rh6 87. Kd8 Rh5 88. Ke7 Rh6 89. Kf8 Rh5 90. Kg7 h6 91. Kxg6 Nf6 92. Bxf2# 1-0[/pgn]

The 3.Kf7- line is near to Huntsman's output after 1...Rh6 (?!), which seems to be suboptimal for Black, from there Huntsman says:

7K/5p1p/3p2pr/6p1/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

2.Kg7 Rh5 3.Kxf7 Rh6 4.Kf8 Rh5 5.Kg7 d5 6.Kf8 Rh6 7.Ke7 Rh5 8.Kd8 Rh6 9.Kc7 Rh5 10.Kc6 Rh6 11.Kb6 Rh5 12.Kc7 Rh6 13.Kd8 Rh5 14.Ke7 Rh6 15.Kf8 Rh5 16.Kg7 d4 17.Kf8 Rh6 18.Ke7 Rh5 19.Kd8 Rh6 20.Kc7 Rh5 21.Kb6 Rh6 22.Ka5 Rh5 23.Kb4 Rh6 24.Ka3 Rh5 25.Kb2 Rh6 26.Kc2 Rh5 27.Kc1 Rh6 28.Kb2 Rh5 29.Ka3 Rh6 30.Kb4 Rh5 31.Ka5 Rh6 32.Kb6 Rh5 33.Kc7 Rh6 34.Kd8 Rh5 35.Ke7 Rh6 36.Kf8 Rh5 37.Kg7 h6 38.Kxg6 Nf6 39.Bxf2#
+- (#38) Depth: 115/76 00:00:03 108MN

1...d5 instead makes it Huntsman's main line at start, so yet still some shorter then "author's" (?) line, corresponding to YACPDB and HHdb, regards
Peter.
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peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by peter »

peter wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:11 am
Here's output after some further rather quick forward- backward, so DTM will be somewhat too long maybe yet still:

7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

1.Be1 d5 2.Kg7 d4 3.Kf8 Rh6 4.Ke7 Rh5 5.Kd8 Rh6 6.Kc7 Rh5 7.Kb6 Rh6 8.Ka5 Rh5 9.Kb4 Rh6 10.Ka3 Rh5 11.Kb2 Rh6 12.Kc2 Rh5 13.Kc1 Rh6 14.Kb2 Rh5 15.Ka3 f6 16.Kb4 Rh6 17.Ka5 Rh5 18.Kb6 Rh6 19.Kc7 Rh5 20.Kd8 Rh6 21.Ke7 Rh5 22.Kf8 Rh6 23.Kg7 Rh5 24.Kg8 Rh6 25.Kf8 Rh5 26.Kg7 f5 27.Kf8 Rh6 28.Ke7 Rh5 29.Kd8 Rh6 30.Kc7 Rh5 31.Kb6 Rh6 32.Ka5 Rh5 33.Kb4 Rh6 34.Ka3 Rh5 35.Kb2 Rh6 36.Kc2 Rh5 37.Kc1 Rh6 38.Kb2 Rh5 39.Ka3 Rh6 40.Kb4 Rh5 41.Ka5 Rh6 42.Kb6 Rh5 43.Kc7 Rh6 44.Kd8 Rh5 45.Ke7 Rh6 46.Kf8 Rh5 47.Kg7 f4 48.Kf8 Rh6 49.Ke7 Rh5 50.Kd8 Rh6 51.Kc7 Rh5 52.Kb6 Rh6 53.Ka5 Rh5 54.Kb4 Rh6 55.Ka3 Rh5 56.Kb2
+- (#70) Depth: 111/111 00:00:12 442MN
BTW, position is in Chest- database too:

ChestUCI Ver.5.2
FEN: 7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - (5+14)
Stellungs-Analyse: C0/R0/K1/P7/X14 W:5/27
Parameter in Datenbank gefunden: #70; 00:02+ @ C2/R0/K1/P5/X10;
Suche nach 1. Spezial-Matt [C2/R0/K1/P5/X10] in 70 ... (Hash=2044MB)
Suche abgeschlossen ... (Zeit=0.61s)
70.17 0:00 +M70 1.Le1
Matt in 70 gefunden ! (1. Lösung in 00:00)
70/70 0:00 +M70 1.Le1 d5 2.Kg7 d4 3.Kf8 Th6 4.Ke7 Th5 5.Kd8 Th6 6.Kc7 Th5 7.Kb6 Th6 8.Ka5 Th5 9.Kb4 Th6 10.Ka3 Th5 11.Kb2 Th6 12.Kc2 Th5 13.Kc1 Th6 14.Kb2 2233
Bester Zug: La5-e1 Zeit: 0:02.328 min K/s: 2.233.140 Knoten: 1.364.449

And here's Chest's line completed by pasting output- pieces till the end:

[pgn] [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "2023.10.13"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - -"] 1. Be1 d5 2. Kg7 d4 3. Kf8 Rh6 4. Ke7 Rh5 5. Kd8 Rh6 6. Kc7 Rh5 7. Kb6 Rh6 8. Ka5 Rh5 9. Kb4 Rh6 10. Ka3 Rh5 11. Kb2 Rh6 12. Kc2 Rh5 13. Kc1 Rh6 14. Kb2 Rh5 15. Ka3 Rh6 16. Kb4 Rh5 17. Ka5 Rh6 18. Kb6 Rh5 19. Kc7 Rh6 20. Kd8 Rh5 21. Ke7 Rh6 22. Kf8 Rh5 23. Kg7 f6 24. Kg8 Rh6 25. Kh8 f5 26. Kg7 Rh5 27. Kf8 Rh6 28. Ke7 Rh5 29. Kd8 Rh6 30. Kc7 Rh5 31. Kb6 Rh6 32. Ka5 Rh5 33. Kb4 Rh6 34. Ka3 Rh5 35. Kb2 Rh6 36. Kc2 Rh5 37. Kc1 Rh6 38. Kb2 Rh5 39. Ka3 Rh6 40. Kb4 Rh5 41. Ka5 Rh6 42. Kb6 Rh5 43. Kc7 Rh6 44. Kd8 Rh5 45. Ke7 Rh6 46. Kf8 Rh5 47. Kg7 f4 48. Kf8 Rh6 49. Ke7 Rh5 50. Kd8 Rh6 51. Kc7 Rh5 52. Kb6 Rh6 53. Ka5 Rh5 54. Kb4 Rh6 55. Ka3 Rh5 56. Kb2 Rh6 57. Kc2 Rh5 58. Kc1 Rh6 59. Kb2 Rh5 60. Ka3 Rh6 61. Kb4 Rh5 62. Ka5 Rh6 63. Kb6 Rh5 64. Kc7 Rh6 65. Kd8 Rh5 66. Ke7 Rh6 67. Kf8 Rh5 68. Kg7 h6 69. Kxg6 Nc5 70. Bxf2# * [/pgn]

And here is Gustav 4.2:

Lösung gefunden bei folgenden Parametern:
Fluchtfelder: 0
nur eine Lösung suchen
Zugzahl bekannt / Hashtabelle: 8192 MB

Lösezeit: : 01 : 14,56 min Zaehler: 10.153683

1.La5-e1 Bd6-d5 2.Kh8-g7 Bd5-d4 3.Kg7-f8 Th5-h6 4.Kf8-e7 Th6-h5 5.Ke7-d8 Th5-h6 6.Kd8-c7 Th6-h5 7.Kc7-b6 Th5-h6 8.Kb6-a5 Th6-h5 9.Ka5-b4 Th5-h6 10.Kb4-a3 Th6-h5 11.Ka3-b2 Th5-h6 12.Kb2-c1 Th6-h5 13.Kc1-c2 Th5-h6 14.Kc2-b2 Th6-h5 15.Kb2-a3 Th5-h6 16.Ka3-b4 Th6-h5 17.Kb4-a5 Th5-h6 18.Ka5-b6 Th6-h5 19.Kb6-c7 Th5-h6 20.Kc7-d8 Th6-h5 21.Kd8-e7 Th5-h6 22.Ke7-f8 Th6-h5 23.Kf8-g7 Bf7-f6 24.Kg7-h8 Th5-h6 25.Kh8-g8 Th6-h5 26.Kg8-g7 Bf6-f5 27.Kg7-f8 Th5-h6 28.Kf8-e7 Th6-h5 29.Ke7-d8 Th5-h6 30.Kd8-c7 Th6-h5 31.Kc7-b6 Th5-h6 32.Kb6-a5 Th6-h5 33.Ka5-b4 Th5-h6 34.Kb4-a3 Th6-h5 35.Ka3-b2 Th5-h6 36.Kb2-c1 Th6-h5 37.Kc1-c2 Th5-h6 38.Kc2-b2 Th6-h5 39.Kb2-a3 Th5-h6 40.Ka3-b4 Th6-h5 41.Kb4-a5 Th5-h6 42.Ka5-b6 Th6-h5 43.Kb6-c7 Th5-h6 44.Kc7-d8 Th6-h5 45.Kd8-e7 Th5-h6 46.Ke7-f8 Th6-h5 47.Kf8-g7 Bf5-f4 48.Kg7-f8 Th5-h6 49.Kf8-e7 Th6-h5 50.Ke7-d8 Th5-h6 51.Kd8-c7 Th6-h5 52.Kc7-b6 Th5-h6 53.Kb6-a5 Th6-h5 54.Ka5-b4 Th5-h6 55.Kb4-a3 Th6-h5 56.Ka3-b2 Th5-h6 57.Kb2-c1 Th6-h5 58.Kc1-c2 Th5-h6 59.Kc2-b2 Th6-h5 60.Kb2-a3 Th5-h6 61.Ka3-b4 Th6-h5 62.Kb4-a5 Th5-h6 63.Ka5-b6 Th6-h5 64.Kb6-c7 Th5-h6 65.Kc7-d8 Th6-h5 66.Kd8-e7 Th5-h6 67.Ke7-f8 Th6-h5 68.Kf8-g7 Th5-h6 69.Kg7-h6 nebst 70.Le1-f2#
Peter.
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Dann Corbit
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Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by Dann Corbit »

Thanks , that is exactly what I was looking for .
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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lech
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Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by lech »

Thanks for this example. Of course, the solution seems to be too long (without tricks). I should return to my auto-play idea (AI) and to improve it in the next version of Sting.
Maybe, I can't be friendly, but let me be useful.
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lech
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Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by lech »

lech wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:05 pm Thanks for this example. Of course, the solution seems to be too long (without tricks in searching). I should return to my auto-play idea (AI) and to improve it in the next version of Sting.
I added only one line to the code of Sting.
Sting Black Hole 6v (based on Stockfish 2.1.1) 64bit by Marek Kwiatkowski
setoption name hash value 1024
position fen 7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - Be1
go movetime 30000 play
a5e1 d6d5 h8g7 f7f5 g7f8 f5f4 f8g7 d5d4 g7f8 h5h6 f8e7 h6h5 e7d8 h5h6 d8c7 h6h5 c7b6 h5h6 b6a5 h6h5 a5b4 h5h6 b4a3 h6h5 a3b2 h5h6 b2c2 h6h5 c2c1 h5h6 c1b2 h6h5 b2a3 h5h6 a3b4 h6h5 b4a5 h5h6 a5b6 h6h5 b6c7 h5h6 c7d8 h6h5 d8e7 h5h6 e7f8 h6h5 f8g7 h5h6 g7h6 e4d6 e1f2 Black is mated
Maybe, I can't be friendly, but let me be useful.
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peter
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by peter »

lech wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:45 pm
lech wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:05 pm Thanks for this example. Of course, the solution seems to be too long (without tricks in searching). I should return to my auto-play idea (AI) and to improve it in the next version of Sting.
I added only one line to the code of Sting.
Sting Black Hole 6v (based on Stockfish 2.1.1) 64bit by Marek Kwiatkowski
setoption name hash value 1024
position fen 7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - Be1
go movetime 30000 play
a5e1 d6d5 h8g7 f7f5 g7f8 f5f4 f8g7 d5d4 g7f8 h5h6 f8e7 h6h5 e7d8 h5h6 d8c7 h6h5 c7b6 h5h6 b6a5 h6h5 a5b4 h5h6 b4a3 h6h5 a3b2 h5h6 b2c2 h6h5 c2c1 h5h6 c1b2 h6h5 b2a3 h5h6 a3b4 h6h5 b4a5 h5h6 a5b6 h6h5 b6c7 h5h6 c7d8 h6h5 d8e7 h5h6 e7f8 h6h5 f8g7 h5h6 g7h6 e4d6 e1f2 Black is mated
3...f4?

5K2/7p/6p1/3p2pr/4nppb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

4.Kg7 d4 5.Kf8 Th6 6.Ke7 Th5 7.Kd8 Th6 8.Kc7 Th5 9.Kb6 Th6 10.Ka5 Th5 11.Kb4 Th6 12.Ka3 Th5 13.Kb2 Th6 14.Kc2 Th5 15.Kc1 Th6 16.Kb2 Th5 17.Ka3 Th6 18.Kb4 Th5 19.Ka5 Th6 20.Kb6 Th5 21.Kc7 Th6 22.Kd8 Th5 23.Ke7 Th6 24.Kf8 Th5 25.Kg7 Th6 26.Kxh6 Sd6 27.Lxf2#
Tiefe: 97/48 00:00:04 153MN

There 3...Rh6 instead:

5K2/7p/6pr/3p1pp1/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

4.Ke7 Th5 5.Kd8 Th6 6.Kc7 Th5 7.Kc6 Th6 8.Kb6 Th5 9.Kc7 Th6 10.Kd8 Th5 11.Ke7 Th6 12.Kf8 Th5 13.Kg7 d4 14.Kf8 Th6 15.Ke7 Th5 16.Kd8 Th6 17.Kc7 Th5 18.Kb6 Th6 19.Ka5 Th5 20.Kb4 Th6 21.Ka3 Th5 22.Kb2 Th6 23.Kc1 Th5 24.Kc2 Th6 25.Kb2 Th5 26.Ka3 Th6 27.Kb4 Th5 28.Ka5 Th6 29.Kb6 Th5 30.Kc7 Th6 31.Kd8 Th5 32.Ke7 Th6 33.Kf8 Th5 34.Kg7 f4 35.Kf8 Th6 36.Ke7 Th5 37.Kd8 Th6 38.Kc7 Th5 39.Kb6 Th6 40.Ka5 Th5 41.Kb4 Th6 42.Ka3 Th5 43.Kb2 Th6 44.Kc1 Th5 45.Kc2 Th6 46.Kb2 Th5 47.Ka3 Th6 48.Kb4 Th5 49.Ka5 Th6 50.Kb6 Th5 51.Kc7 Th6 52.Kd8 Th5 53.Ke7 Th6 54.Kf8 Th5 55.Kg7 Th6 56.Kxh6 Sd6 57.Lxf2#
Tiefe: 113/108 00:00:09 394MN

2...f5?

There 2...d4 instead, then you get the full DTM by best play from both sides again, which is a mate in 70 as shown by Chest and Gustav too:

8/5pKp/6p1/3p2pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR b - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

2...d4 3.Kf8 Th6 4.Ke7 Th5 5.Kd8 Th6 6.Kc7 Th5 7.Kb6 Th6 8.Ka5 Th5 9.Kb4 Th6 10.Ka3 Th5 11.Kb2 Th6 12.Kc1 Th5 13.Kc2 Th6 14.Kb2 Th5 15.Ka3 Th6 16.Kb4 Th5 17.Ka5 Th6 18.Kb6 Th5 19.Kc7 Th6 20.Kd8 Th5 21.Ke7 Th6 22.Kf8 Th5 23.Kg7 f6 24.Kg8 Th6 25.Kf8 Th5 26.Kg7 f5 27.Kf8 Th6 28.Ke7 Th5 29.Kd8 Th6 30.Kc7 Th5 31.Kb6 Th6 32.Ka5 Th5 33.Kb4 Th6 34.Ka3 Th5 35.Kb2 Th6 36.Kc2 Th5 37.Kc1 Th6 38.Kb2 Th5 39.Ka3 Th6 40.Kb4 Th5 41.Ka5 Th6 42.Kb6 Th5 43.Kc7 Th6 44.Kd8 Th5 45.Ke7 Th6 46.Kf8 Th5 47.Kg7 f4 48.Kf8 Th6 49.Ke7 Th5 50.Kd8 Th6 51.Kc7 Th5 52.Kb6 Th6 53.Ka5 Th5 54.Kb4 Th6 55. Ka3 Rh5 56. Kb2 Rh6 57. Kc1 Rh5 58. Kc2 Rh6 59. Kb2 Rh5 60. Ka3 Rh6 61. Kb4 Rh5 62. Ka5 Rh6 63. Kb6 Rh5 64. Kc7 Rh6 65. Kd8 Rh5 66. Ke7 Rh6 67. Kf8 Rh5 68. Kg7 Rh6 69. Kxh6 Nd6 70. Bxf2#
Tiefe: 104/106 00:00:58 2206MN
Peter.
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lech
Posts: 1169
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:02 pm

Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by lech »

peter wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 6:01 pm
lech wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:45 pm
lech wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:05 pm Thanks for this example. Of course, the solution seems to be too long (without tricks in searching). I should return to my auto-play idea (AI) and to improve it in the next version of Sting.
I added only one line to the code of Sting.
Sting Black Hole 6v (based on Stockfish 2.1.1) 64bit by Marek Kwiatkowski
setoption name hash value 1024
position fen 7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - Be1
go movetime 30000 play
a5e1 d6d5 h8g7 f7f5 g7f8 f5f4 f8g7 d5d4 g7f8 h5h6 f8e7 h6h5 e7d8 h5h6 d8c7 h6h5 c7b6 h5h6 b6a5 h6h5 a5b4 h5h6 b4a3 h6h5 a3b2 h5h6 b2c2 h6h5 c2c1 h5h6 c1b2 h6h5 b2a3 h5h6 a3b4 h6h5 b4a5 h5h6 a5b6 h6h5 b6c7 h5h6 c7d8 h6h5 d8e7 h5h6 e7f8 h6h5 f8g7 h5h6 g7h6 e4d6 e1f2 Black is mated
3...f4?

5K2/7p/6p1/3p2pr/4nppb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

4.Kg7 d4 5.Kf8 Th6 6.Ke7 Th5 7.Kd8 Th6 8.Kc7 Th5 9.Kb6 Th6 10.Ka5 Th5 11.Kb4 Th6 12.Ka3 Th5 13.Kb2 Th6 14.Kc2 Th5 15.Kc1 Th6 16.Kb2 Th5 17.Ka3 Th6 18.Kb4 Th5 19.Ka5 Th6 20.Kb6 Th5 21.Kc7 Th6 22.Kd8 Th5 23.Ke7 Th6 24.Kf8 Th5 25.Kg7 Th6 26.Kxh6 Sd6 27.Lxf2#
Tiefe: 97/48 00:00:04 153MN

There 3...Rh6 instead:

5K2/7p/6pr/3p1pp1/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

4.Ke7 Th5 5.Kd8 Th6 6.Kc7 Th5 7.Kc6 Th6 8.Kb6 Th5 9.Kc7 Th6 10.Kd8 Th5 11.Ke7 Th6 12.Kf8 Th5 13.Kg7 d4 14.Kf8 Th6 15.Ke7 Th5 16.Kd8 Th6 17.Kc7 Th5 18.Kb6 Th6 19.Ka5 Th5 20.Kb4 Th6 21.Ka3 Th5 22.Kb2 Th6 23.Kc1 Th5 24.Kc2 Th6 25.Kb2 Th5 26.Ka3 Th6 27.Kb4 Th5 28.Ka5 Th6 29.Kb6 Th5 30.Kc7 Th6 31.Kd8 Th5 32.Ke7 Th6 33.Kf8 Th5 34.Kg7 f4 35.Kf8 Th6 36.Ke7 Th5 37.Kd8 Th6 38.Kc7 Th5 39.Kb6 Th6 40.Ka5 Th5 41.Kb4 Th6 42.Ka3 Th5 43.Kb2 Th6 44.Kc1 Th5 45.Kc2 Th6 46.Kb2 Th5 47.Ka3 Th6 48.Kb4 Th5 49.Ka5 Th6 50.Kb6 Th5 51.Kc7 Th6 52.Kd8 Th5 53.Ke7 Th6 54.Kf8 Th5 55.Kg7 Th6 56.Kxh6 Sd6 57.Lxf2#
Tiefe: 113/108 00:00:09 394MN

2...f5?

There 2...d4 instead, then you get the full DTM by best play from both sides again, which is a mate in 70 as shown by Chest and Gustav too:

8/5pKp/6p1/3p2pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR b - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

2...d4 3.Kf8 Th6 4.Ke7 Th5 5.Kd8 Th6 6.Kc7 Th5 7.Kb6 Th6 8.Ka5 Th5 9.Kb4 Th6 10.Ka3 Th5 11.Kb2 Th6 12.Kc1 Th5 13.Kc2 Th6 14.Kb2 Th5 15.Ka3 Th6 16.Kb4 Th5 17.Ka5 Th6 18.Kb6 Th5 19.Kc7 Th6 20.Kd8 Th5 21.Ke7 Th6 22.Kf8 Th5 23.Kg7 f6 24.Kg8 Th6 25.Kf8 Th5 26.Kg7 f5 27.Kf8 Th6 28.Ke7 Th5 29.Kd8 Th6 30.Kc7 Th5 31.Kb6 Th6 32.Ka5 Th5 33.Kb4 Th6 34.Ka3 Th5 35.Kb2 Th6 36.Kc2 Th5 37.Kc1 Th6 38.Kb2 Th5 39.Ka3 Th6 40.Kb4 Th5 41.Ka5 Th6 42.Kb6 Th5 43.Kc7 Th6 44.Kd8 Th5 45.Ke7 Th6 46.Kf8 Th5 47.Kg7 f4 48.Kf8 Th6 49.Ke7 Th5 50.Kd8 Th6 51.Kc7 Th5 52.Kb6 Th6 53.Ka5 Th5 54.Kb4 Th6 55. Ka3 Rh5 56. Kb2 Rh6 57. Kc1 Rh5 58. Kc2 Rh6 59. Kb2 Rh5 60. Ka3 Rh6 61. Kb4 Rh5 62. Ka5 Rh6 63. Kb6 Rh5 64. Kc7 Rh6 65. Kd8 Rh5 66. Ke7 Rh6 67. Kf8 Rh5 68. Kg7 Rh6 69. Kxh6 Nd6 70. Bxf2#
Tiefe: 104/106 00:00:58 2206MN
I think all is ok with Sting's AI.
Black is mated and moves 2...f5 and 3...f4 are not mistakes in the Sting's auto-play. All other moves lead to mate too
and if they happen (I tried) Sting is able to play it too.
Maybe, I can't be friendly, but let me be useful.
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peter
Posts: 3395
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by peter »

lech wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:11 pm I think all is ok with Sting's AI.
Black is mated and moves 2...f5 and 3...f4 are not mistakes in the Sting's auto-play. All other moves lead to mate too
and if they happen (I tried) Sting is able to play it too.
2...f5 and 3...f4 are no mistakes as for game changing, but they are'nt the best moves from Black's side as for DTM. They make it (DTM) shorter, so they are mistakes in this one sense yet, Black has better moves there with longer DTM as shown, regards
Peter.
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lech
Posts: 1169
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:02 pm

Re: question about a study BY Troitsky

Post by lech »

peter wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:17 pm
lech wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:11 pm I think all is ok with Sting's AI.
Black is mated and moves 2...f5 and 3...f4 are not mistakes in the Sting's auto-play. All other moves lead to mate too
and if they happen (I tried) Sting is able to play it too.
2...f5 and 3...f4 are no mistakes as for game changing, but they are'nt the best moves from Black's side as for DTM. They make it (DTM) shorter, so they are mistakes in this one sense yet, Black has better moves there with longer DTM as shown, regards
For machines it is no difference (mistake ???) rather. It can be a problem for weak chessplayers only. Maybe they can't understand the cyclic (time consuming by postponed pawn moves) idea.
But it is not that valuable study to waste time for such nonsens discusion. :)
Maybe, I can't be friendly, but let me be useful.
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