Python for programming chess

[evert823]

Recently I started with a Python-based chess project.

Now it has correct alpha-beta (I think), and some initial 3-plies search for prioritizing candidates. It's doing fine with not too complex positions or not too many pieces, and if I run with pypy.
Unfortunately, I estimate that it will need between 24 and 48 hours for this position:
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/more-p ... e-61176239

Several years ago I had written a C# program. I was not satisfied with performance, alpha-beta was not completely implemented yet.
Code was way more messy. But at the moment, this old C# program is still 20 times faster than this new Python program.

[towforce]

Why do you think that your Python program is an order of magnitude slower than your C# program?

[evert823]

Why do you think that your Python program is an order of magnitude slower than your C# program?

I assume that it is because C# is compiled and python is not. pypy does some form of compiling but that's apparently not as good as the C# compiler.

[shawn]

Python is not really a good choice for engine programming. It is indeed much slower than C#

[flok]

Why do you think that your Python program is an order of magnitude slower than your C# program?

I assume that it is because C# is compiled and python is not. pypy does some form of compiling but that's apparently not as good as the C# compiler.

If you look for a python compiler that produces code which is for speed similar to c++ (yes I tested that), take a look at shedskin: https://github.com/shedskin/shedskin/

[evert823]

Why do you think that your Python program is an order of magnitude slower than your C# program?

I assume that it is because C# is compiled and python is not. pypy does some form of compiling but that's apparently not as good as the C# compiler.

If you look for a python compiler that produces code which is for speed similar to c++ (yes I tested that), take a look at shedskin: https://github.com/shedskin/shedskin/

shedskin doesn't work, giving this error message while trying to install it:
Permission denied: 'C:\\Program Files\\WindowsApps\\PythonSoftwareFoundation.Python.3.9_3.9.3568.0_x64__qbz5n2kfra8p0\\Lib\\site-packages\\test-easy-install-11080.write-test'
And I couldn't really find any mentioning of somebody else, who has run into this same problem while using shedskin for transpiling python.

[evert823]

Since my current python program is quite concise, to rewrite it manually might be as good as going for a shedskin or cython or cmake approach.
That leads to two more questions for now.
1. Can I assume that C#, C++ and C are more or less equally good choices for this - from performance point of view?

2. Will an object-oriented approach slow it down?
Suppose I have the position in a class. In order to check a move, I create a new instance/object and that happens recursively. Woeld this somehow impact performance negatively?
(It seems unavoidable that we somehow construct the position after a hypothetical move, in order to check it.)

[chesskobra]

2. Will an object-oriented approach slow it down?
Suppose I have the position in a class. In order to check a move, I create a new instance/object and that happens recursively. Woeld this somehow impact performance negatively?
(It seems unavoidable that we somehow construct the position after a hypothetical move, in order to check it.)

I am not an expert programmer or language expert. But is the new object allocated and freed every time? That should be avoided. Maybe you could use a stack and go up and down the stack for make and unmake move. That is what I am doing for a game.

[flok]

Why do you think that your Python program is an order of magnitude slower than your C# program?

I assume that it is because C# is compiled and python is not. pypy does some form of compiling but that's apparently not as good as the C# compiler.

If you look for a python compiler that produces code which is for speed similar to c++ (yes I tested that), take a look at shedskin: https://github.com/shedskin/shedskin/

shedskin doesn't work, giving this error message while trying to install it:
Permission denied: 'C:\\Program Files\\WindowsApps\\PythonSoftwareFoundation.Python.3.9_3.9.3568.0_x64__qbz5n2kfra8p0\\Lib\\site-packages\\test-easy-install-11080.write-test'
And I couldn't really find any mentioning of somebody else, who has run into this same problem while using shedskin for transpiling python.

Ah windows. Try running it as administrator or sacrifice a lamb to the gods

[smatovic]

[..]
That leads to two more questions for now.
1. Can I assume that C#, C++ and C are more or less equally good choices for this - from performance point of view?
[...]

It depends on implementation, AFAIK C# has an garbage collector for memory, slows down, IMHO it was shown with CFish and AsmFish that the further you go close to the metal the more performance you gain.

https://www.chessprogramming.org/CFish
https://www.chessprogramming.org/AsmFish

--
Srdja