Some Hard Talkchess suite results

[Spliffjiffer]

hi, Peter:-)
yes, i accept...interactive change of engines whenever WE like to...ill try to be leveled...CPU -mässig klar but lets play ...gg:-)

[peter]

Pity such things still never let me leave them before I'm sure on my own. Your 2...h6! is better, than SF's ...Kf8? was, and so far neither Lc0 nor Crystal nor me found ways to prevent Black's Rd4 sooner or later, together with the getting free of the Bishop of Black's it now seems to me, the White fortress yet could be conquered. Will try 2.h4 instead of g4, if that isn't transposition only, I will return with more lines, for now I'd yet rather have some sleep


[pgn][Event "Schnellschach 25min+5sek"]
[White "Lc0 v0.31.2"]
[Black "Crystal dev-20241216-da701f36"]
[Site "?"]
[Round "1"]
[Annotator "Peter"]
[Result "*"]
[Date "2025.01.03"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1r4k1/pb3p1p/r1p1p1p1/2p1P3/P1P2P2/1PB5/2K3PP/5R2 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "32"]
[GameId "2130086480425089"]

1. a5 Rd8 2. g4 h6 3. h4 (3. g5 hxg5 4. fxg5 Rd4 5. h3 (5. Rf3 Kf8 6. h3 Ke8 7. Re3 Bc8 8. Rf3 Bd7 9. Rf6 Kf8 10. Rf3 Be8 11. Re3 Rf4 12. Kd3 Rh4 13. Rf3 f5 14. exf6 e5 15. Re3 Bd7 16. Rxe5 Bf5+ $19) 5... Kf8 6. Rf3 Bc8 7. Rd3 Ke8 (7... Bd7 $2 8. Bd2 f6 (8... Rxd3 9. Kxd3 f5 10. h4 Ke8 $11) 9. Rxd4 cxd4 10. c5 fxg5 $11) 8. Kd2 Bd7 9. Ke2 f6 10. exf6 (10. gxf6 Rxd3 11. Kxd3 g5 12. Ke3 Kf8 $19) 10... e5 11. Re3 Kf8 12. Rxe5 Rh4 13. Re3 Bxh3 14. Re7 Bg4+ 15. Kd2 Rh2+ $19) 3... g5 4. hxg5 (4. fxg5 hxg5 5. hxg5 Kg7 {trans.}) 4... hxg5 5. fxg5 Kg7 6. Rh1 (6. Rd1 Rh8 $19) 6... Rd4 7. g6 Rxg4 (7... Rd8 $2 8. gxf7 Rf8 9. Rd1 Bc8 10. Kb2 Rxf7 (10... Kxf7 11. Rf1+ Ke8 12. Rxf8+ Kxf8 $11) 11. Rd8 Bd7 12. Be1 Kg6 13. Rg8+ Rg7 14. Rxg7+ Kxg7 15. Ka3 Be8 $11) 8. gxf7 Rg2+ 9. Kb1 (9. Kd3 Rf2 10. f8=Q+ Rxf8 11. Rg1+ Kf7 12. Rf1+ Ke8 13. Rxf8+ Kxf8 14. Ke3 Kg7 15. Kf3 Kg6 16. Kf4 Bc8 $19) 9... Kxf7 10. Rh8 Rg8 11. Rh7+ (11. Rxg8 Kxg8 12. Kb2 Kf7 $19) 11... Rg7 12. Rh8 Kg6 13. Rf8 Rf7 14. Rh8 Rf3 15. Kc2 Rxc3+ 16. Kxc3 Rxa5 $19 *
[/pgn]

[Spliffjiffer]

sure !...is this the game so far ?: 1.a5 Rd8 ?
there will be no prob from my side to take back any move...this is a try of clarification...and no matter how it ends, the pos is really,really difficult and unable to answer trivially..."Nothing else matters"

[peter]

sure !...is this the game so far ?: 1.a5 Rd8 ?

You want your game, I see

Problem is, as I wrote yesterday (today early in the morning here, last one .pgn, you saw, didn't you? Those lines are winning for Black, if I haven't blundered by myself getting a little tired already), that I'm at the moment rather on your side, Peer, succeeding better to find cracks in the fortress of White's but ways to hold it.
3. or 2.h4 seemed to transpose mainly to what I gave latest, so I'm at the moment trying 2.Rd1, will be back having at least one line to decisive end, but till now it looks lost for White too, regards

[Spliffjiffer]

moin Peter
no, im not really hot to discuss this jungle...if u agree than we can just live our lives, hehehe ...gähn

[Spliffjiffer]

lets wait and see what SF25 says ), ok?

[peter]

Or anybody else, who wants to join the discussion maybe. Haven't found refutations for the lines in my latest .pgn (5 postings above), so I did let play out one more eng-eng-game from the latest line, I tried so far, the moves in .pgn without engine- evals were given. Not, that there wouldn't be much space for alternative moves at the very start, yet I don't think White can hold that, if Black find's the best moves to deny White to set up a fortress. That's again 28 threads of CPU against 2 and 3070ti GPU:

[pgn][Event "AMD, Schnellschach 25.0min+5.0sek"]
[White "Lc0 v0.31.2"]
[Black "Crystal dev-20241216-da701f36"]
[Site "AMD"]
[Round "1"]
[Annotator "-1.95;-2.55"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Date "2025.01.04"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1r4k1/pb3p1p/r1p1p1p1/2p1P3/P1P2P2/1PB5/2K3PP/5R2 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "70"]
[GameId "2130258702074011"]
[TimeControl "1500+5"]

1. a5 Rd8 2. Rd1 Rd4 3. g3 h6 4. h4 g5 5. hxg5 hxg5 6. fxg5 Kg7 7. Ra1 {-1.95/15 135} Rd8 {-2.55/27 96} 8. Rd1 {-1.90/20 47 (Tg1)} Rxd1 {-4.15/32 43} 9. Kxd1 {-1.92/23 0} Kg6 {-4.15/30 38} 10. Ke2 {-1.91/21 9} Kxg5 {-4.35/34 136} 11. Ke3 {-2.22/25 146 (Kf3)} Kg4 {-4.55/31 65 (Lc8)} 12. Be1 {-1.96/20 34 (Ld2)} Bc8 {-4.70/30 50} 13. Bc3 {-2.40/24 22 (Ke4)} Kxg3 {-5.90/33 143 (Ld7)} 14. Bd2 {-2.76/24 48} Bd7 {-6.30/33 20} 15. Be1+ {-2.83/23 0} Kg4 {-6.35/31 32} 16. Ke4 {-2.97/23 0} Be8 {-6.50/31 58} 17. Bc3 {-3.39/23 10} Kg3 {-6.50/31 22} 18. Be1+ {-3.74/16 1} Kg2 {-6.50/33 35} 19. Ke3 {-3.89/21 6} f5 {-6.80/37 142} 20. exf6 {-4.36/21 0} Bg6 {-6.60/32 33} 21. Ke2 {-4.62/20 0} e5 {-6.90/33 342 (Kh3)} 22. Ke3 {-4.34/19 131 (Lc3)} e4 {-6.80/32 34} 23. Ke2 {-4.93/19 123 (Lc3)} Kh3 {-7.05/31 24} 24. Ke3 {-5.30/16 0} Kg4 {-7.15/30 34} 25. f7 {-5.31/17 0} Bxf7 {-7.55/32 196} 26. Kxe4 {-5.34/18 1} Bg6+ {-7.45/27 11} 27. Ke5 {-5.35/15 0} Kf3 {-8.05/30 65 (Lc2)} 28. Kd6 {-5.39/16 68 (Lc3)} Ke2 {-8.60/27 11} 29. Bc3 {-5.58/16 17 (Lh4)} Bc2 {-9.00/23 4} 30. Kxc5 {-6.06/14 29} Kd3 {-9.55/30 0 (Lxb3)} 31. Be1 {-6.73/14 158} Bxb3 {-13.15/33 0} 32. Bb4 {-7.32/13 1 (Kb4)} Bxc4 {-12.00/24 19 (Ld1)} 33. Be1 {-7.73/13 29} Ba2 {-12.25/24 0 (Ld5)} 34. Bb4 {-8.96/12 48} Bf7 {-13.25/27 0 (Kc2)} 35. Be1 {-8.58/12 41} Ba2 {-13.60/22 0 (Kc2)} 0-1
[/pgn]
Game with reversed colours is running, I'll hand it in later, if it should yet end up drawn, otherwise not.
Morally you already have a full point, Peer, but I guess I could get it back, if we'd exchange sides of the board now,

[Ajedrecista]

Hello Peter:

Or anybody else, who wants to join the discussion maybe. [...]

[pgn][Event "AMD, Schnellschach 25.0min+5.0sek"]
[White "Lc0 v0.31.2"]
[Black "Crystal dev-20241216-da701f36"]
[Site "AMD"]
[Round "1"]
[Annotator "-1.95;-2.55"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Date "2025.01.04"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1r4k1/pb3p1p/r1p1p1p1/2p1P3/P1P2P2/1PB5/2K3PP/5R2 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "70"]
[GameId "2130258702074011"]
[TimeControl "1500+5"]

1. a5 Rd8 2. Rd1 Rd4 3. g3 h6 4. h4 g5 5. hxg5 hxg5 6. fxg5 Kg7 7. Ra1 {-1.95/15 135} Rd8 {-2.55/27 96} 8. Rd1 {-1.90/20 47 (Tg1)} Rxd1 {-4.15/32 43} 9. Kxd1 {-1.92/23 0} Kg6 {-4.15/30 38} 10. Ke2 {-1.91/21 9} Kxg5 {-4.35/34 136} 11. Ke3 {-2.22/25 146 (Kf3)} Kg4 {-4.55/31 65 (Lc8)} 12. Be1 {-1.96/20 34 (Ld2)} Bc8 {-4.70/30 50} 13. Bc3 {-2.40/24 22 (Ke4)} Kxg3 {-5.90/33 143 (Ld7)} 14. Bd2 {-2.76/24 48} Bd7 {-6.30/33 20} 15. Be1+ {-2.83/23 0} Kg4 {-6.35/31 32} 16. Ke4 {-2.97/23 0} Be8 {-6.50/31 58} 17. Bc3 {-3.39/23 10} Kg3 {-6.50/31 22} 18. Be1+ {-3.74/16 1} Kg2 {-6.50/33 35} 19. Ke3 {-3.89/21 6} f5 {-6.80/37 142} 20. exf6 {-4.36/21 0} Bg6 {-6.60/32 33} 21. Ke2 {-4.62/20 0} e5 {-6.90/33 342 (Kh3)} 22. Ke3 {-4.34/19 131 (Lc3)} e4 {-6.80/32 34} 23. Ke2 {-4.93/19 123 (Lc3)} Kh3 {-7.05/31 24} 24. Ke3 {-5.30/16 0} Kg4 {-7.15/30 34} 25. f7 {-5.31/17 0} Bxf7 {-7.55/32 196} 26. Kxe4 {-5.34/18 1} Bg6+ {-7.45/27 11} 27. Ke5 {-5.35/15 0} Kf3 {-8.05/30 65 (Lc2)} 28. Kd6 {-5.39/16 68 (Lc3)} Ke2 {-8.60/27 11} 29. Bc3 {-5.58/16 17 (Lh4)} Bc2 {-9.00/23 4} 30. Kxc5 {-6.06/14 29} Kd3 {-9.55/30 0 (Lxb3)} 31. Be1 {-6.73/14 158} Bxb3 {-13.15/33 0} 32. Bb4 {-7.32/13 1 (Kb4)} Bxc4 {-12.00/24 19 (Ld1)} 33. Be1 {-7.73/13 29} Ba2 {-12.25/24 0 (Ld5)} 34. Bb4 {-8.96/12 48} Bf7 {-13.25/27 0 (Kc2)} 35. Be1 {-8.58/12 41} Ba2 {-13.60/22 0 (Kc2)} 0-1
[/pgn]

[...]

I find interesting your position after 32.- ..., Bxc4, with less pieces OTB, as I suggested before.

[d]8/p7/r1p5/P1K5/1Bb5/3k4/8/8 w - - 0 33

Given that bishops are of opposite colour, there is a fortress with white playing Bb4 and Be1, not allowing to lose this DSB —which defends a5— and completely forgetting about the black LSB, staying at c5 to avoid a pawn push with c5, freeing the rook through the sixth rank. There can be other white moves if white goes for Ke2, Kd1, Kc2... with an additional c3 safe square for white DSB, even if black saves its bishop first with Bf7 or something like that.

Other thing would be that, with OCB again, the white pawn was on a4 or a3, with the following FEN strings:

8/8/p7/r1p5/P1K5/1Bb5/3k4/8 w - - 0 1
8/8/8/p7/r1p5/P1K5/1Bb5/3k4 w - - 0 1

Then, the white bishop target squares (b3 and d1; or b2 and c1) would be too close between then, with the black king waiting to capture the bishop and fortress crumbling afterwards; or the white king moving from the outpost in front of the black passed pawn, allowing for the pawn push and the later black win. In other words, there is a zugzwang in the last two positions, which are only side notes or curiosities, and not variations from the problem discussed here.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

[peter]

I find interesting your position after 32.- ..., Bxc4, with less pieces OTB, as I suggested before.

[d]8/p7/r1p5/P1K5/1Bb5/3k4/8/8 w - - 0 33

Given that bishops are of opposite colour, there is a fortress with white playing Bb4 and Be1, not allowing to lose this DSB —which defends a5— and completely forgetting about the black LSB, staying at c5 to avoid a pawn push with c5, freeing the rook through the sixth rank. There can be other white moves if white goes for Ke2, Kd1, Kc2... with an additional c3 safe square for white DSB, even if black saves its bishop first with Bf7 or something like that.

You are not saying, the position of the dia was drawn yet still, do you?
After 32...Bxc4 Black's King can't be stopped from attacking the a-pawn too and game over, that's why I accepted adjournment by GUI
even if there came an unnecessary forth and back of Black's bishop once before that.

After 33.Be1 (still in game)

[d]8/p7/r1p5/P1K5/2b5/3k4/8/4B3 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Crystal dev-20241216-da701f36:

33...Lf7 34.Lb4 Kc2 35.Kd6 c5+ 36.Kxc5 Kd3 37.Le1 Lc4 38.Lb4 Te6 39.La3 Te5+ 40.Kd6 Txa5
Tiefe: 30/68 00:01:20 11106MN, tb=168630722
-+ (-98.85)

And with 35.Be1 instead of Kd6 in this output- line e.g.
35...Kb3 e.g. 35.Bd2 Ka4 e.g. 37.Bc3 Rxa5
[d]8/p4b2/2p5/r1K5/k7/2B5/8/8 w - - 0 38
Here White can take back and have a lost 6men position (38.Bxa5 -#14) or not and move the King out of the way of the black c-pawn, so what?
Did I get you wrong in any way about your opinion as for the outcome of the Lc0- Crystal- game?

[Ajedrecista]

Hello Peter:

It seems I wrote too soon. I did not see the black king going to a4 and Rxa5 then. Miscalculations do not happen only to GMs in the final game of WCC, do they?

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.