another SF fortress fail ....

chrisw · Post by **chrisw** » Mon Sep 23, 2024 11:11 am

LCZero sees it, SF17 doesn't (move 60 or so)

[pgn][Event "CCC22 Rapid: Finals (10|3)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2024.03.09"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish"]
[Black "Lc0"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Variant "Standard"]
[TimeControl "600+3"]
[ECO "A81"]
[Opening "Dutch Defense: Semi-Leningrad Variation"]
[Termination "Unterminated"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 { A81 Dutch Defense: Semi-Leningrad Variation } 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nh3 O-O 6. O-O c5 7. d5 d6 8. Nf4 Na6 9. Nc3 Rb8 10. Nb5 Ra8 11. a4 Nc7 12. Qc2 Nxb5 13. axb5 a6 14. Bd2 Bd7 15. bxa6 Rxa6 16. Rxa6 bxa6 17. Ra1 Qb6 18. Ba5 Qb7 19. Ra3 Rb8 20. b3 Qc8 21. Bd2 Ng4 22. h3 Ne5 23. e3 Nf7 24. Nd3 Ne5 25. Nc1 Nf7 26. Kh2 Bf6 27. Nd3 Ne5 28. Ne1 Nf7 29. Bc3 Bxc3 30. Qxc3 Ng5 31. Nd3 h6 32. Nf4 Kh7 33. Ra2 Qb7 34. Ra3 Qc8 35. Qd2 Rb6 36. h4 Nf7 37. h5 gxh5 38. Nxh5 Ne5 39. Qd1 Qh8 40. Kg1 Ng4 41. Qc2 Ne5 42. Qd1 Ng4 43. Qc2 Ne5 44. Nf4 Kg8 45. Bh3 Qf6 46. Qd1 Ng4 47. Qc2 Ne5 48. Ra2 Qg5 49. Qd1 Be8 50. Qc2 Bd7 51. Qd1 Be8 52. Kg2 Bd7 53. Qa1 Rxb3 54. Rxa6 Rb8 55. Ra7 Be8 56. e4 fxe4 57. Ra8 Rxa8 58. Qxa8 Kf7 59. Be6+ Kf8 60. Bd7 Nxd7 61. Ne6+ Kf7 62. Nxg5+ hxg5 63. Qa1 Nf6 64. Kf1 g4 65. Qa8 Kf8 66. Qd8 Kf7 67. Ke2 Ba4 68. Qa8 Be8 69. Ke3 Bd7 70. Kd2 Be8 71. Kc3 Kf8 72. Kd2 Kf7 73. Qa1 Bd7 74. Ke3 Kg7 75. Kf4 Kg6 76. Qa7 Kg7 77. Ke3 Kf7 78. Qa5 Be8 79. Kf4 Bd7 80. Qa8 Kg7 81. Qd8 Kf7 82. Qb8 Kg7 83. Qd8 Kf7 84. Qa5 Kg7 85. Qa2 Kf7 86. Qa8 Kg7 87. Qb7 Kf7 88. Qb8 Kg7 89. Kg5 Nh7+ 90. Kh4 Nf6 91. Qd8 Kf7 92. Qh8 Ba4 93. Kg5 Bb3 94. Qc8 Bxc4 95. Qe6+ Ke8 96. Qc8+ Kf7 97. Qe6+ Ke8 98. Kh6 Bxd5 99. Qf5 Kf7 100. Qg6+ Kf8 101. Qg7+ Ke8 102. Qh8+ Kf7 103. Qg7+ Ke6 104. Qg5 Kf7 105. Qg6+ Kf8 106. Qg5 Kf7 107. Qf5 c4 108. Qc8 Be6 109. Qb7 e3 110. fxe3 Bf5 111. Qc6 Bd3 112. Qc8 Ng8+ 113. Kh5 Nf6+ 114. Kh6 Ng8+ 115. Kg5 Nf6 116. Kh4 e5 117. Qb7+ Ke6 118. Qc8+ Kd5 119. Qb7+ Ke6 120. Qc8+ Ke7 121. Qc7+ Ke6 122. Qd8 Ne4 123. Qg8+ Ke7 124. Qg7+ Kd8 125. Qxg4 Nc5 126. Qg8+ Ke7 127. Qg7+ Ke6 128. Qg8+ Ke7 129. Qg7+ Ke6 130. g4 c3 131. g5 c2 132. g6 Kd5 133. Qf7+ Ne6 134. g7 Bh7 135. Qb7+ Kc4 136. Qa6+ Kb3 137. Qb6+ Kc3 138. Qxd6 c1=Q 139. Qxe5+ Kb4 140. Qxe6 Qc4+ 141. Qg4 Bg8 142. e4 Qf7 143. e5+ Kb5 144. e6 Qf6+ 145. Kh5 Qe5+ 146. Kg6 Bxe6 *[/pgn]

Guenther · Post by **Guenther** » Mon Sep 23, 2024 12:25 pm

chrisw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 11:11 am LCZero sees it, SF17 doesn't (move 60 or so)

[pgn][Event "CCC22 Rapid: Finals (10|3)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2024.03.09"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish"]
[Black "Lc0"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Variant "Standard"]
[TimeControl "600+3"]
[ECO "A81"]
[Opening "Dutch Defense: Semi-Leningrad Variation"]
[Termination "Unterminated"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 { A81 Dutch Defense: Semi-Leningrad Variation } 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nh3 O-O 6. O-O c5 7. d5 d6 8. Nf4 Na6 9. Nc3 Rb8 10. Nb5 Ra8 11. a4 Nc7 12. Qc2 Nxb5 13. axb5 a6 14. Bd2 Bd7 15. bxa6 Rxa6 16. Rxa6 bxa6 17. Ra1 Qb6 18. Ba5 Qb7 19. Ra3 Rb8 20. b3 Qc8 21. Bd2 Ng4 22. h3 Ne5 23. e3 Nf7 24. Nd3 Ne5 25. Nc1 Nf7 26. Kh2 Bf6 27. Nd3 Ne5 28. Ne1 Nf7 29. Bc3 Bxc3 30. Qxc3 Ng5 31. Nd3 h6 32. Nf4 Kh7 33. Ra2 Qb7 34. Ra3 Qc8 35. Qd2 Rb6 36. h4 Nf7 37. h5 gxh5 38. Nxh5 Ne5 39. Qd1 Qh8 40. Kg1 Ng4 41. Qc2 Ne5 42. Qd1 Ng4 43. Qc2 Ne5 44. Nf4 Kg8 45. Bh3 Qf6 46. Qd1 Ng4 47. Qc2 Ne5 48. Ra2 Qg5 49. Qd1 Be8 50. Qc2 Bd7 51. Qd1 Be8 52. Kg2 Bd7 53. Qa1 Rxb3 54. Rxa6 Rb8 55. Ra7 Be8 56. e4 fxe4 57. Ra8 Rxa8 58. Qxa8 Kf7 59. Be6+ Kf8 60. Bd7 Nxd7 61. Ne6+ Kf7 62. Nxg5+ hxg5 63. Qa1 Nf6 64. Kf1 g4 65. Qa8 Kf8 66. Qd8 Kf7 67. Ke2 Ba4 68. Qa8 Be8 69. Ke3 Bd7 70. Kd2 Be8 71. Kc3 Kf8 72. Kd2 Kf7 73. Qa1 Bd7 74. Ke3 Kg7 75. Kf4 Kg6 76. Qa7 Kg7 77. Ke3 Kf7 78. Qa5 Be8 79. Kf4 Bd7 80. Qa8 Kg7 81. Qd8 Kf7 82. Qb8 Kg7 83. Qd8 Kf7 84. Qa5 Kg7 85. Qa2 Kf7 86. Qa8 Kg7 87. Qb7 Kf7 88. Qb8 Kg7 89. Kg5 Nh7+ 90. Kh4 Nf6 91. Qd8 Kf7 92. Qh8 Ba4 93. Kg5 Bb3 94. Qc8 Bxc4 95. Qe6+ Ke8 96. Qc8+ Kf7 97. Qe6+ Ke8 98. Kh6 Bxd5 99. Qf5 Kf7 100. Qg6+ Kf8 101. Qg7+ Ke8 102. Qh8+ Kf7 103. Qg7+ Ke6 104. Qg5 Kf7 105. Qg6+ Kf8 106. Qg5 Kf7 107. Qf5 c4 108. Qc8 Be6 109. Qb7 e3 110. fxe3 Bf5 111. Qc6 Bd3 112. Qc8 Ng8+ 113. Kh5 Nf6+ 114. Kh6 Ng8+ 115. Kg5 Nf6 116. Kh4 e5 117. Qb7+ Ke6 118. Qc8+ Kd5 119. Qb7+ Ke6 120. Qc8+ Ke7 121. Qc7+ Ke6 122. Qd8 Ne4 123. Qg8+ Ke7 124. Qg7+ Kd8 125. Qxg4 Nc5 126. Qg8+ Ke7 127. Qg7+ Ke6 128. Qg8+ Ke7 129. Qg7+ Ke6 130. g4 c3 131. g5 c2 132. g6 Kd5 133. Qf7+ Ne6 134. g7 Bh7 135. Qb7+ Kc4 136. Qa6+ Kb3 137. Qb6+ Kc3 138. Qxd6 c1=Q 139. Qxe5+ Kb4 140. Qxe6 Qc4+ 141. Qg4 Bg8 142. e4 Qf7 143. e5+ Kb5 144. e6 Qf6+ 145. Kh5 Qe5+ 146. Kg6 Bxe6 *[/pgn]

You were trapped by youtube level nonsense/scam...
That happens when Humans try to interpret superlevel games w/o even knowing what evals are.

SF 'saw' the draw at any time and even more consistently ('better') than LC0. No more to say - except that it is half a year old too.

(PGN transformed through one of my scripts for readability)

[pgn][Event "CCC22 Rapid: Finals (10|3)"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2024.03.09"]
[Round "15"]
[White "Stockfish"]
[Black "Lc0"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A81"]
[GameDuration "00:34:02"]
[GameEndTime "2024-03-09T17:51:18.462 PST"]
[GameStartTime "2024-03-09T17:17:15.555 PST"]
[Opening "Dutch defense"]
[PlyCount "292"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[TimeControl "600+3"]

1. d4 {book} f5 {book}
2. g3 {book} Nf6 {book}
3. Bg2 {book} g6 {book}
4. c4 {book} Bg7 {book}
5. Nh3 {book} O-O {book}
6. O-O {book} c5 {book}
7. d5 {book} d6 {book}
8. Nf4 {book} Na6 {book}
9. Nc3 {+0.80/39 106s tl=00:08:16 s=113465kN/s tb=9129} Rb8 {-0.70/19 89s tl=00:08:33 s=14kN/s tb=0}
10. Nb5 {+0.76/40 10s tl=00:08:09 s=139844kN/s tb=61} Ra8 {-0.71/20 16s tl=00:08:21 s=15kN/s tb=0}
11. a4 {+0.72/47 38s tl=00:07:34 s=122117kN/s tb=334} Nc7 {-0.73/22 12s tl=00:08:12 s=15kN/s tb=0}
12. Qc2 {+0.67/46 8.3s tl=00:07:28 s=156654kN/s tb=9} Nxb5 {-0.42/18 19s tl=00:07:55 s=15kN/s tb=0}
13. axb5 {+0.67/40 9.5s tl=00:07:22 s=139171kN/s tb=34} a6 {-0.42/16 6.3s tl=00:07:52 s=15kN/s tb=0}
14. Bd2 {+0.67/45 8.4s tl=00:07:16 s=135769kN/s tb=214} Bd7 {-0.40/19 12s tl=00:07:44 s=16kN/s tb=0}
15. bxa6 {+0.66/41 11s tl=00:07:08 s=137202kN/s tb=597} Rxa6 {-0.42/18 11s tl=00:07:36 s=17kN/s tb=0}
16. Rxa6 {+0.64/44 13s tl=00:06:58 s=139010kN/s tb=215} bxa6 {-0.42/17 6.7s tl=00:07:32 s=18kN/s tb=0}
17. Ra1 {+0.66/42 9.2s tl=00:06:52 s=154759kN/s tb=356} Qb6 {-0.42/16 9.7s tl=00:07:25 s=18kN/s tb=0}
18. Ba5 {+0.65/41 11s tl=00:06:43 s=147474kN/s tb=476} Qb7 {-0.47/16 15s tl=00:07:13 s=19kN/s tb=0}
19. Ra3 {+0.66/42 8.5s tl=00:06:38 s=150657kN/s tb=923} Rb8 {-0.47/15 8.4s tl=00:07:08 s=20kN/s tb=0}
20. b3 {+0.66/43 12s tl=00:06:29 s=152781kN/s tb=481} Qc8 {-0.48/14 13s tl=00:06:58 s=20kN/s tb=0}
21. Bd2 {+0.65/41 8.7s tl=00:06:23 s=156772kN/s tb=506} Ng4 {-0.46/14 16s tl=00:06:44 s=20kN/s tb=0}
22. h3 {+0.64/41 14s tl=00:06:12 s=152620kN/s tb=1606} Ne5 {-0.45/14 15s tl=00:06:32 s=20kN/s tb=0}
23. e3 {+0.62/40 36s tl=00:05:39 s=130021kN/s tb=3900} Nf7 {-0.46/11 51s tl=00:05:44 s=20kN/s tb=0}
24. Nd3 {+0.65/45 35s tl=00:05:07 s=119768kN/s tb=11692} Ne5 {-0.46/12 19s tl=00:05:28 s=19kN/s tb=0}
25. Nc1 {+0.56/90 61s tl=00:04:09 s=120638kN/s tb=8390} Nf7 {-0.46/12 12s tl=00:05:19 s=20kN/s tb=0}
26. Kh2 {+0.56/79 18s tl=00:03:54 s=128470kN/s tb=2801} Bf6 {-0.46/13 23s tl=00:04:59 s=20kN/s tb=0}
27. Nd3 {+0.56/57 9.4s tl=00:03:48 s=145648kN/s tb=1129} Ne5 {-0.46/14 10s tl=00:04:52 s=19kN/s tb=0}
28. Ne1 {+0.56/63 13s tl=00:03:38 s=140000kN/s tb=2554} Nf7 {-0.45/14 11s tl=00:04:44 s=18kN/s tb=0}
29. Bc3 {+0.63/57 102s tl=00:01:59 s=91218kN/s tb=106822} Bxc3 {-0.47/14 8.1s tl=00:04:39 s=17kN/s tb=0}
30. Qxc3 {+0.56/35 9.2s tl=00:01:52 s=131119kN/s tb=8150} Ng5 {-0.49/14 20s tl=00:04:22 s=17kN/s tb=0}
31. Nd3 {+0.67/37 4.4s tl=00:01:51 s=137244kN/s tb=781} h6 {-0.45/16 30s tl=00:03:55 s=16kN/s tb=0}
32. Nf4 {+0.73/32 4.9s tl=00:01:49 s=129238kN/s tb=22901} Kh7 {-0.44/18 3.6s tl=00:03:54 s=15kN/s tb=0}
33. Ra2 {+0.62/46 58s tl=00:00:54 s=110304kN/s tb=331616} Qb7 {-0.43/17 11s tl=00:03:46 s=16kN/s tb=0}
34. Ra3 {+0.63/37 19s tl=00:00:38 s=132765kN/s tb=21124} Qc8 {-0.46/15 6.9s tl=00:03:42 s=17kN/s tb=0}
35. Qd2 {+0.55/36 15s tl=00:00:26 s=129136kN/s tb=100210} Rb6 {-0.45/17 15s tl=00:03:30 s=16kN/s tb=0}
36. h4 {+0.68/29 2.0s tl=00:00:27 s=131518kN/s tb=966} Nf7 {-0.44/19 6.2s tl=00:03:27 s=16kN/s tb=0}
37. h5 {+0.64/35 2.8s tl=00:00:27 s=108663kN/s tb=1175} gxh5 {-0.45/20 7.1s tl=00:03:23 s=17kN/s tb=0}
38. Nxh5 {+0.65/36 4.4s tl=00:00:26 s=106742kN/s tb=2033} Ne5 {-0.45/19 6.0s tl=00:03:20 s=17kN/s tb=0}
39. Qd1 {+0.63/33 2.7s tl=00:00:26 s=128234kN/s tb=1921} Qh8 {-0.45/19 17s tl=00:03:06 s=18kN/s tb=0}
40. Kg1 {+0.64/36 17s tl=00:00:12 s=93037kN/s tb=26152} Ng4 {-0.46/20 7.9s tl=00:03:01 s=17kN/s tb=0}
41. Qc2 {+0.61/34 1.4s tl=00:00:13 s=144356kN/s tb=960} Ne5 {-0.40/19 41s tl=00:02:23 s=18kN/s tb=21}
42. Qd1 {+0.45/32 11s tl=00:00:05 s=103309kN/s tb=15305} Ng4 {-0.36/18 11s tl=00:02:15 s=18kN/s tb=0}
43. Qc2 {+0.46/26 0.63s tl=00:00:07 s=159068kN/s tb=139} Ne5 {-0.42/22 23s tl=00:01:55 s=19kN/s tb=30}
44. Nf4 {+0.42/29 2.0s tl=00:00:08 s=120426kN/s tb=1999} Kg8 {-0.39/13 8.2s tl=00:01:50 s=19kN/s tb=0}
45. Bh3 {+0.42/27 1.3s tl=00:00:10 s=135589kN/s tb=460} Qf6 {-0.39/14 5.4s tl=00:01:47 s=19kN/s tb=0}
46. Qd1 {+0.34/33 8.6s tl=00:00:04 s=106081kN/s tb=12042} Ng4 {-0.38/15 8.1s tl=00:01:42 s=19kN/s tb=0}
47. Qc2 {+0.35/29 1.5s tl=00:00:06 s=154776kN/s tb=680} Ne5 {-0.36/15 13s tl=00:01:33 s=21kN/s tb=0}
48. Ra2 {+0.39/31 5.2s tl=00:00:04 s=118885kN/s tb=11416} Qg5 {-0.39/14 22s tl=00:01:13 s=17kN/s tb=0}
49. Qd1 {+0.35/31 3.4s tl=00:00:03 s=119110kN/s tb=13931} Be8 {-0.38/15 3.4s tl=00:01:13 s=17kN/s tb=0}
50. Qc2 {+0.26/29 3.1s tl=00:00:03 s=142923kN/s tb=6240} Bd7 {-0.30/13 8.0s tl=00:01:08 s=18kN/s tb=0}
51. Qd1 {+0.25/30 3.0s tl=00:00:03 s=141285kN/s tb=9108} Be8 {-0.33/14 6.4s tl=00:01:04 s=17kN/s tb=0}
52. Kg2 {+0.22/25 0.94s tl=00:00:05 s=161425kN/s tb=3533} Bd7 {-0.37/14 10s tl=00:00:57 s=18kN/s tb=0}
53. Qa1 {+0.53/27 4.6s tl=00:00:04 s=101628kN/s tb=31976} Rxb3 {-0.23/17 7.6s tl=00:00:53 s=17kN/s tb=7}
54. Rxa6 {+1.32/19 0.42s tl=00:00:06 s=136350kN/s tb=337} Rb8 {-0.23/18 3.4s tl=00:00:52 s=18kN/s tb=9}
55. Ra7 {+1.33/25 0.87s tl=00:00:08 s=144973kN/s tb=2091} Be8 {-0.23/19 3.8s tl=00:00:51 s=20kN/s tb=25}
56. e4 {+0.71/39 5.6s tl=00:00:06 s=155244kN/s tb=20278} fxe4 {-0.25/22 8.3s tl=00:00:46 s=30kN/s tb=75}
57. Ra8 {+0.63/33 1.7s tl=00:00:07 s=215646kN/s tb=6042} Rxa8 {-0.28/22 3.8s tl=00:00:45 s=39kN/s tb=65}
58. Qxa8 {+0.62/35 1.5s tl=00:00:08 s=189561kN/s tb=11756} Kf7 {-0.30/20 3.0s tl=00:00:45 s=45kN/s tb=32}
59. Be6+ {+0.60/35 1.1s tl=00:00:10 s=225457kN/s tb=2517} Kf8 {-0.34/20 3.7s tl=00:00:45 s=53kN/s tb=17}
60. Bd7 {+0.60/41 1.2s tl=00:00:12 s=231305kN/s tb=1712} Nxd7 {-0.36/19 2.7s tl=00:00:45 s=56kN/s tb=2}
61. Ne6+ {+0.61/37 1.4s tl=00:00:14 s=238443kN/s tb=679} Kf7 {-0.40/17 2.3s tl=00:00:46 s=60kN/s tb=2}
62. Nxg5+ {+0.63/44 2.2s tl=00:00:14 s=235137kN/s tb=3291} hxg5 {-0.47/16 1.9s tl=00:00:47 s=56kN/s tb=1}
63. Qa1 {+0.28/59 12s tl=00:00:05 s=203764kN/s tb=67808} Nf6 {-0.46/17 31s tl=00:00:19 s=39kN/s tb=3}
64. Kf1 {+0.25/40 0.63s tl=00:00:07 s=254644kN/s tb=154} g4 {-0.46/21 1.7s tl=00:00:20 s=38kN/s tb=0}
65. Qa8 {+0.17/40 4.2s tl=00:00:06 s=228293kN/s tb=665} Kf8 {-0.46/22 13s tl=00:00:10 s=30kN/s tb=4}
66. Qd8 {+0.09/23 1.4s tl=00:00:08 s=243773kN/s tb=30} Kf7 {-0.41/21 2.1s tl=00:00:11 s=42kN/s tb=0}
67. Ke2 {+0.12/35 1.6s tl=00:00:09 s=224194kN/s tb=1396} Ba4 {-0.38/20 3.5s tl=00:00:10 s=36kN/s tb=2}
68. Qa8 {+0.13/44 3.6s tl=00:00:09 s=220466kN/s tb=1513} Be8 {-0.42/21 4.5s tl=00:00:09 s=38kN/s tb=0}
69. Ke3 {+0.09/33 1.5s tl=00:00:10 s=245607kN/s tb=1} Bd7 {-0.40/23 4.4s tl=00:00:08 s=36kN/s tb=2}
70. Kd2 {+0.03/50 3.2s tl=00:00:10 s=219766kN/s tb=1724} Be8 {-0.37/20 2.9s tl=00:00:08 s=38kN/s tb=0}
71. Kc3 {+0.02/46 1.8s tl=00:00:11 s=218840kN/s tb=4068} Kf8 {-0.04/14 4.4s tl=00:00:06 s=53kN/s tb=0}
72. Kd2 {+0.01/53 2.1s tl=00:00:12 s=230472kN/s tb=2626} Kf7 {-0.04/17 2.8s tl=00:00:06 s=39kN/s tb=0}
73. Qa1 {+0.01/54 1.8s tl=00:00:13 s=239361kN/s tb=270} Bd7 {-0.04/16 3.2s tl=00:00:06 s=44kN/s tb=0}
74. Ke3 {0.00/68 1.9s tl=00:00:14 s=212035kN/s tb=8282} Kg7 {-0.32/20 3.4s tl=00:00:06 s=37kN/s tb=0}
75. Kf4 {0.00/76 2.0s tl=00:00:15 s=203960kN/s tb=19093} Kg6 {-0.32/21 3.7s tl=00:00:05 s=34kN/s tb=3}
76. Qa7 {0.00/70 2.5s tl=00:00:16 s=153379kN/s tb=43530} Kg7 {-0.05/22 3.1s tl=00:00:05 s=37kN/s tb=1}
77. Ke3 {0.00/61 2.2s tl=00:00:17 s=185682kN/s tb=41787} Kf7 {-0.24/19 3.0s tl=00:00:05 s=39kN/s tb=0}
78. Qa5 {0.00/71 2.7s tl=00:00:17 s=204929kN/s tb=37381} Be8 {-0.25/19 3.6s tl=00:00:04 s=35kN/s tb=1}
79. Kf4 {0.00/69 1.8s tl=00:00:18 s=207656kN/s tb=24800} Bd7 {-0.28/22 2.4s tl=00:00:05 s=36kN/s tb=0}
80. Qa8 {0.00/69 2.4s tl=00:00:19 s=212835kN/s tb=19919} Kg7 {-0.23/22 3.4s tl=00:00:05 s=33kN/s tb=1}
81. Qd8 {0.00/59 2.0s tl=00:00:20 s=216590kN/s tb=8816} Kf7 {-0.22/21 1.9s tl=00:00:06 s=40kN/s tb=1}
82. Qb8 {0.00/64 2.4s tl=00:00:20 s=212033kN/s tb=21842} Kg7 {-0.21/21 2.7s tl=00:00:06 s=38kN/s tb=4}
83. Qd8 {0.00/68 2.3s tl=00:00:21 s=210790kN/s tb=29946} Kf7 {-0.20/20 1.7s tl=00:00:07 s=44kN/s tb=1}
84. Qa5 {0.00/80 2.7s tl=00:00:21 s=200332kN/s tb=58776} Kg7 {-0.22/19 5.5s tl=00:00:05 s=40kN/s tb=2}
85. Qa2 {0.00/66 2.1s tl=00:00:22 s=126836kN/s tb=93210} Kf7 {-0.03/20 4.3s tl=00:00:04 s=25kN/s tb=2}
86. Qa8 {0.00/70 4.5s tl=00:00:21 s=109959kN/s tb=196183} Kg7 {-0.22/18 2.0s tl=00:00:05 s=38kN/s tb=0}
87. Qb7 {0.00/128 12s tl=00:00:12 s=114114kN/s tb=724747} Kf7 {-0.20/19 3.6s tl=00:00:04 s=36kN/s tb=1}
88. Qb8 {0.00/76 1.2s tl=00:00:13 s=163103kN/s tb=45303} Kg7 {-0.19/17 2.5s tl=00:00:05 s=49kN/s tb=0}
89. Kg5 {0.00/100 7.6s tl=00:00:09 s=119462kN/s tb=424331} Nh7+ {-0.03/19 2.6s tl=00:00:05 s=29kN/s tb=0}
90. Kh4 {0.00/75 4.8s tl=00:00:07 s=175312kN/s tb=132511} Nf6 {-0.20/22 2.1s tl=00:00:06 s=34kN/s tb=2}
91. Qd8 {0.00/73 0.77s tl=00:00:09 s=191196kN/s tb=6052} Kf7 {-0.19/21 2.2s tl=00:00:07 s=36kN/s tb=1}
92. Qh8 {0.00/121 8.0s tl=00:00:04 s=173835kN/s tb=310203} Ba4 {-0.16/21 5.7s tl=00:00:04 s=35kN/s tb=5}
93. Kg5 {0.00/61 0.66s tl=00:00:06 s=171295kN/s tb=7653} Bb3 {-0.09/18 2.6s tl=00:00:04 s=42kN/s tb=0}
94. Qc8 {0.00/88 1.1s tl=00:00:08 s=152478kN/s tb=35434} Bxc4 {-0.10/17 2.7s tl=00:00:05 s=33kN/s tb=0}
95. Qe6+ {0.00/67 1.2s tl=00:00:10 s=163520kN/s tb=29516} Ke8 {-0.12/16 2.6s tl=00:00:05 s=35kN/s tb=1}
96. Qc8+ {0.00/83 4.2s tl=00:00:09 s=89425kN/s tb=278116} Kf7 {+0.03/1 0.060s tl=00:00:08 s=510kN/s tb=0}
97. Qe6+ {0.00/55 1.6s tl=00:00:10 s=138758kN/s tb=64202} Ke8 {-0.10/14 2.5s tl=00:00:09 s=42kN/s tb=1}
98. Kh6 {0.00/69 1.5s tl=00:00:12 s=137948kN/s tb=49234} Bxd5 {0.00/12 3.7s tl=00:00:08 s=40kN/s tb=7}
99. Qf5 {0.00/68 2.0s tl=00:00:13 s=106914kN/s tb=86777} Kf7 {+0.01/12 4.5s tl=00:00:06 s=43kN/s tb=4}
100. Qg6+ {0.00/64 1.4s tl=00:00:14 s=114075kN/s tb=72618} Kf8 {+0.01/13 2.3s tl=00:00:07 s=44kN/s tb=9}
101. Qg7+ {0.00/59 1.5s tl=00:00:16 s=129165kN/s tb=68639} Ke8 {-0.01/1 0.060s tl=00:00:10 s=1081kN/s tb=0}
102. Qh8+ {0.00/74 3.1s tl=00:00:16 s=108437kN/s tb=373659} Kf7 {+0.03/12 3.8s tl=00:00:09 s=40kN/s tb=36}
103. Qg7+ {0.00/57 3.9s tl=00:00:15 s=104151kN/s tb=189710} Ke6 {-0.01/13 7.8s tl=00:00:04 s=41kN/s tb=101}
104. Qg5 {0.00/88 2.1s tl=00:00:16 s=121339kN/s tb=102070} Kf7 {+0.01/12 2.5s tl=00:00:05 s=39kN/s tb=1}
105. Qg6+ {0.00/60 7.1s tl=00:00:12 s=96468kN/s tb=624619} Kf8 {0.00/12 2.3s tl=00:00:06 s=50kN/s tb=12}
106. Qg5 {0.00/55 1.5s tl=00:00:13 s=112058kN/s tb=89633} Kf7 {+0.02/10 3.4s tl=00:00:05 s=57kN/s tb=1}
107. Qf5 {0.00/71 2.0s tl=00:00:14 s=167165kN/s tb=103654} c4 {+0.01/12 4.7s tl=00:00:04 s=47kN/s tb=0}
108. Qc8 {0.00/60 1.7s tl=00:00:15 s=147734kN/s tb=79723} Be6 {0.00/12 2.5s tl=00:00:04 s=36kN/s tb=3}
109. Qb7 {0.00/60 1.8s tl=00:00:17 s=160333kN/s tb=101624} e3 {0.00/11 3.4s tl=00:00:04 s=39kN/s tb=3}
110. fxe3 {0.00/62 2.3s tl=00:00:17 s=136175kN/s tb=353971} Bf5 {+0.01/11 2.6s tl=00:00:04 s=40kN/s tb=2}
111. Qc6 {0.00/60 5.4s tl=00:00:15 s=96749kN/s tb=1119024} Bd3 {+0.04/12 2.8s tl=00:00:04 s=37kN/s tb=7}
112. Qc8 {0.00/92 6.5s tl=00:00:11 s=99062kN/s tb=1614112} Ng8+ {-0.01/12 3.2s tl=00:00:04 s=42kN/s tb=19}
113. Kh5 {0.00/59 2.0s tl=00:00:12 s=147484kN/s tb=315746} Nf6+ {+0.02/12 2.5s tl=00:00:05 s=51kN/s tb=31}
114. Kh6 {0.00/63 1.6s tl=00:00:14 s=134024kN/s tb=448494} Ng8+ {-0.02/10 3.0s tl=00:00:05 s=63kN/s tb=17}
115. Kg5 {0.00/75 6.2s tl=00:00:10 s=93497kN/s tb=2310872} Nf6 {+0.09/5 1.2s tl=00:00:06 s=94kN/s tb=10}
116. Kh4 {0.00/90 7.7s tl=00:00:06 s=94039kN/s tb=3185271} e5 {+0.11/14 3.5s tl=00:00:06 s=42kN/s tb=91}
117. Qb7+ {0.00/69 0.66s tl=00:00:08 s=220114kN/s tb=82619} Ke6 {+0.11/18 2.6s tl=00:00:06 s=44kN/s tb=99}
118. Qc8+ {0.00/67 1.3s tl=00:00:10 s=158553kN/s tb=422205} Kd5 {+0.09/19 5.5s tl=00:00:04 s=45kN/s tb=325}
119. Qb7+ {0.00/61 1.5s tl=00:00:11 s=146316kN/s tb=583525} Ke6 {+0.09/19 2.7s tl=00:00:04 s=48kN/s tb=169}
120. Qc8+ {0.00/69 1.2s tl=00:00:13 s=142668kN/s tb=475627} Ke7 {+0.07/13 3.3s tl=00:00:04 s=57kN/s tb=160}
121. Qc7+ {0.00/79 2.7s tl=00:00:13 s=113684kN/s tb=1052147} Ke6 {+0.09/13 1.9s tl=00:00:05 s=67kN/s tb=99}
122. Qd8 {0.00/74 6.4s tl=00:00:10 s=112216kN/s tb=3264784} Ne4 {+0.16/22 2.8s tl=00:00:05 s=37kN/s tb=300}
123. Qg8+ {0.00/63 0.79s tl=00:00:12 s=235283kN/s tb=184756} Ke7 {+0.08/20 3.0s tl=00:00:05 s=35kN/s tb=441}
124. Qg7+ {0.00/73 1.8s tl=00:00:13 s=122104kN/s tb=830298} Kd8 {+0.03/18 3.0s tl=00:00:05 s=36kN/s tb=672}
125. Qxg4 {0.00/61 1.5s tl=00:00:15 s=134673kN/s tb=892535} Nc5 {+0.03/17 4.6s tl=00:00:03 s=39kN/s tb=1010}
126. Qg8+ {0.00/58 1.6s tl=00:00:16 s=217477kN/s tb=315064} Ke7 {+0.03/14 1.9s tl=00:00:05 s=58kN/s tb=196}
127. Qg7+ {0.00/71 2.3s tl=00:00:17 s=222726kN/s tb=343507} Ke6 {+0.03/13 2.1s tl=00:00:05 s=47kN/s tb=218}
128. Qg8+ {0.00/75 2.4s tl=00:00:18 s=155093kN/s tb=839109} Ke7 {+0.15/8 1.3s tl=00:00:07 s=86kN/s tb=92}
129. Qg7+ {0.00/62 2.8s tl=00:00:18 s=134476kN/s tb=1116132} Ke6 {+0.09/6 1.1s tl=00:00:09 s=91kN/s tb=86}
130. g4 {0.00/85 13s tl=00:00:08 s=118492kN/s tb=5605009} c3 {+0.02/22 3.3s tl=00:00:09 s=20kN/s tb=707}
131. g5 {0.00/65 0.66s tl=00:00:10 s=193017kN/s tb=119957} c2 {+0.01/21 3.2s tl=00:00:09 s=22kN/s tb=904}
132. g6 {0.00/68 1.1s tl=00:00:12 s=191434kN/s tb=210835} Kd5 {+0.02/19 3.2s tl=00:00:08 s=22kN/s tb=1042}
133. Qf7+ {0.00/76 1.7s tl=00:00:13 s=247275kN/s tb=188928} Ne6 {+0.16/18 3.2s tl=00:00:08 s=24kN/s tb=1328}
134. g7 {0.00/72 1.4s tl=00:00:15 s=193938kN/s tb=747958} Bh7 {+0.21/18 3.1s tl=00:00:08 s=27kN/s tb=1737}
135. Qb7+ {0.00/82 2.2s tl=00:00:16 s=192899kN/s tb=1224288} Kc4 {+0.18/19 3.2s tl=00:00:08 s=30kN/s tb=2804}
136. Qa6+ {0.00/88 2.2s tl=00:00:17 s=188464kN/s tb=2254601} Kb3 {+0.15/18 3.1s tl=00:00:08 s=35kN/s tb=2930}
137. Qb6+ {0.00/93 3.5s tl=00:00:16 s=165590kN/s tb=4191560} Kc3 {+0.10/15 5.7s tl=00:00:05 s=35kN/s tb=6160}
138. Qxd6 {0.00/87 2.2s tl=00:00:17 s=154670kN/s tb=2977622} c1=Q {+0.11/10 3.1s tl=00:00:05 s=35kN/s tb=6219}
139. Qxe5+ {0.00/117 2.5s tl=00:00:17 s=169058kN/s tb=5387066} Kb4 {+0.11/8 3.7s tl=00:00:04 s=40kN/s tb=8696}
140. Qxe6 {0.00/88 3.2s tl=00:00:17 s=90627kN/s tb=4943281} Qc4+ {0.00/6 3.5s tl=00:00:04 s=43kN/s tb=7791}
141. Qg4 {0.00/76 12s tl=00:00:08 s=179199kN/s tb=37400238} Bg8 {0.00/4 2.9s tl=00:00:04 s=58kN/s tb=5876}
142. e4 {0.00/74 0.93s tl=00:00:10 s=287368kN/s tb=400175} Qf7 {0.00/6 3.4s tl=00:00:03 s=24kN/s tb=5176}
143. e5+ {0.00/75 1.5s tl=00:00:12 s=288807kN/s tb=648615} Kb5 {0.00/6 3.0s tl=00:00:03 s=29kN/s tb=5903}
144. e6 {0.00/79 1.8s tl=00:00:13 s=247665kN/s tb=1801645} Qf6+ {0.00/3 2.5s tl=00:00:04 s=75kN/s tb=4507}
145. Kh5 {0.00/245 1.9s tl=00:00:14 s=161819kN/s tb=5633166} Qe5+ {0.00/4 3.2s tl=00:00:04 s=84kN/s tb=8203}
146. Kg6 {0.00/122 2.4s tl=00:00:15 s=173430kN/s tb=14377970} Bxe6 {0.00/3 2.7s tl=00:00:04 s=137kN/s tb=5839}
1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Viz · Post by **Viz** » Mon Sep 23, 2024 12:37 pm

Move 60 is probably the last move where sf had higher eval than leela. Might as well say that at move 65 sf sees a fortress and leela doesn't.

chrisw · Post by **chrisw** » Mon Sep 23, 2024 3:15 pm

Yay, points taken. One wonders if this position isn’t in general more of a material balance problem Q v two minors and immobile pawns rather than a fortress. Saccing the pawns later was good knowledge.

hgm · Post by **hgm** » Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:28 pm

chrisw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 3:15 pm Yay, points taken. One wonders if this position isn’t in general more of a material balance problem Q v two minors and immobile pawns rather than a fortress.

But that is what a fortress is. Having all strength concentrated in a single piece is the most common motif of fortresses. If the opponent can keep all his pieces protected, and you cannot chase them away with Pawns, there is nothing that you can do to make progress, then.

You cannot say one of the engines sees the fortress just because it has a non-zero score closer to zero. If it sees a fortress the score should be nearly 0, not half a Pawn. I suppose the engines here were searching significantly deeper than 2 ply, so even at move 60 the fortress was well within their horizon.

chrisw · Post by **chrisw** » Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:26 pm

hgm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:28 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 3:15 pm Yay, points taken. One wonders if this position isn’t in general more of a material balance problem Q v two minors and immobile pawns rather than a fortress.
But that is what a fortress is. Having all strength concentrated in a single piece is the most common motif of fortresses. If the opponent can keep all his pieces protected, and you cannot chase them away with Pawns, there is nothing that you can do to make progress, then.

You cannot say one of the engines sees the fortress just because it has a non-zero score closer to zero. If it sees a fortress the score should be nearly 0, not half a Pawn. I suppose the engines here were searching significantly deeper than 2 ply, so even at move 60 the fortress was well within their horizon.

You describe a material fortress, but if mating pieces can infiltrate to the enemy king, then, fortress it is not.

hgm · Post by **hgm** » Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:56 pm

I did not claim that every position where the strong side only has a single piece automatically is a fortress. But in Chess even the strongest piece cannot force checkmate on its own. So to become immune to checkmate all you have to do is keep the enemy King away from yours.

Exclusion of the King is not trivial to test. Material composition is, though, and would have to be tested anyway for detecting things like insufficient mating material. So as a first filter for a more elaborate fortress detector it makes the fortress detection almost free in the middle-game.

chrisw · Post by **chrisw** » Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:47 am

hgm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:56 pm I did not claim that every position where the strong side only has a single piece automatically is a fortress. But in Chess even the strongest piece cannot force checkmate on its own. So to become immune to checkmate all you have to do is keep the enemy King away from yours.

Exclusion of the King is not trivial to test. Material composition is, though, and would have to be tested anyway for detecting things like insufficient mating material. So as a first filter for a more elaborate fortress detector it makes the fortress detection almost free in the middle-game.

I’ve tried this stuff back in HCE days. It’s riddled with special cases, zugswang being one when the moves forces an unprotection, and getting it nearly right is absolutely not good enough.
If you succeeded, well done.

hgm · Post by **hgm** » Tue Sep 24, 2024 12:15 pm

It depends on how you want to use it. If the idea is to treat it as 'insufficient mating material', returning a draw score without further search, then it had better be correct. If you use it merely to discourage positions that have a high probability of being a fortress, like you would do in drawishness detection of end-games like KNPKB, merely reducing the evaluation by a factor, it is not so critical. If the fortress can be broken a deeper search would reveal it, and the score would return to normal.

another SF fortress fail ....

another SF fortress fail ....

Re: fortress draws look nicer than other draws

Re: another SF fortress fail ....

Re: another SF fortress fail ....

Re: another SF fortress fail ....

Re: another SF fortress fail ....

Re: another SF fortress fail ....

Re: another SF fortress fail ....

Re: another SF fortress fail ....