Draw , or not ??

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Carbec
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:42 am
Location: France
Full name: Philippe Chevalier

Draw , or not ??

Post by Carbec »

Hi,
I can't get an idea about this position :
[d]4rrk1/p1p2p1p/1pbq1b2/4N2Q/3Pp3/8/PPP4P/R1B1K2R w KQ - 0 17
Even Stockfish doesn't be sure.
What do you think ?

Philippe
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towforce
Posts: 12143
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:57 am
Location: Birmingham UK
Full name: Graham Laight

Re: Draw , or not ??

Post by towforce »

Look's like a "race" rather than a "draw": white's king is horribly exposed given that the queens are on the board, but white has the more obvious checkmating threats.
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Ajedrecista
Posts: 2042
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:04 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain.

Re: Draw or not?

Post by Ajedrecista »

Carbec wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:28 am Hi,
I can't get an idea about this position :
[d]4rrk1/p1p2p1p/1pbq1b2/4N2Q/3Pp3/8/PPP4P/R1B1K2R w KQ - 0 17
Even Stockfish doesn't be sure.
[...]
SF 17 with Multi-PV = 5 thinks that there are four drawish moves from depth 9:

Code: Select all

FEN: 4rrk1/p1p2p1p/1pbq1b2/4N2Q/3Pp3/8/PPP4P/R1B1K2R w KQ - 0 17

Stockfish-17-windows-x86-64-sse41-popcnt:
[...]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  9/24	00:01	     507.997	824.670	-0,78	c2c3 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8
  9/20	00:01	     507.997	824.670	-0,14	Bc1e3 Qd6b4+ Ke1f2 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 d4xe5 Qb4xb2 Ra1d1 f7f6 e5e6 Qb2xc2+ Rd1d2 Qc2c3 Qh5h6 Rf8g8
  9/17	00:01	     507.997	824.670	+0,10	Ne5xc6 Qd6xc6 Bc1h6 Qc6xc2 OO Bf6xd4+ Kg1h1 Qc2xb2 Ra1d1 Re8e6 Bh6xf8 Re6g6
  9/16	00:01	     507.997	824.670	+0,13	Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1g5 Bf6g7 c2c3 Bg7xe5 d4xe5 Re8xe5 Qh5h4 f7f6 Bg5f4
  9/21	00:01	     507.997	832.781	+0,18	Qh5h6 e4e3 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1xe3 Bf6xe5 d4xe5 Qd6xe5 Rg1g3 Rf8g8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[...]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 30/40	01:45	  68.466.055	649.502	-1,02	Rh1f1 Bf6g7 Bc1e3 Qd6b4+ c2c3 Qb4xb2 Ra1c1 Re8e6 Rf1xf7 Bc6e8 Rf7xg7+ Kg8xg7 Qh5g4+ Re6g6 Ne5xg6 h7xg6 Qg4xe4 Be8d7 Qe4c2 Qb2b5 c3c4 Qb5h5 Ke1d2 Bd7f5 Qc2b2 Qh5xh2+ Kd2c3 Qh2d6 c4c5 Qd6d5 Qb2h2 Rf8e8 Qh2xc7+ Kg7g8 Be3h6 Qd5xa2
 30/50	01:45	  68.466.055	649.502	-0,19	Ne5xc6 Qd6xc6 Bc1h6 Qc6xc2 OO Bf6xd4+ Kg1h1 Re8e6 Ra1c1 Qc2xb2 Bh6xf8 Re6g6 Qh5h3 Kg8xf8 Rc1xc7 Bd4f6 Rc7xa7 Qb2c2 Ra7a3 Qc2c6 Qh3f5 e4e3+ Qf5f3 Qc6xf3+ Rf1xf3 e3e2 Ra3a8+ Bf6d8 Rf3e3 Rg6e6 Re3xe2 Re6xe2 Ra8xd8+ Kf8e7 Rd8b8 Re2b2 a2a3 h7h5 Rb8h8 Rb2a2 Rh8b8
 30/36	01:45	  68.466.055	649.502	 0,00	Qh5h6 Re8xe5 d4xe5 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1f4 Qd6xh6 Bf4xh6 Be5xb2 Bh6xf8 Bb2xa1 Ke1d2 Ba1e5 Kd2e3 h7h5 Rg1g5 Be5xh2 Rg5xh5+ Kh8g8 Bf8e7 Bh2g1+ Ke3f4 Bg1d4 Rh5g5+ Kg8h7 Rg5h5+ Kh7g6 Rh5g5+
 30/18	01:45	  68.466.055	649.502	 0,00	Bc1e3 Qd6b4+ c2c3 Qb4xb2 Ra1c1 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 d4xe5 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Re8xg8 Qh5h6 Rg8g6 Qh6f8+ Rg6g8 Qf8h6
 30/62	01:45	  68.466.055	649.502	+0,17	Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1g5 Bf6xe5 d4xe5 Re8xe5 Qh5h4 f7f6 Bg5h6 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Kh8xg8 Qh4g3+ Kg8f7 Qg3g7+ Kf7e6 Qg7g8+ Ke6d7 Bh6f4 Qd6e6 OOO+ Re5d5 Qg8xh7+ Qe6e7 Rd1xd5+ Bc6xd5 Qh7xe7+ Kd7xe7 b2b3
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[...]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 40/66	11:39	 386.449.862	552.544	-1,20	Rh1f1 Bf6g7 c2c3 e4e3 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7 Qh5xf7+ Kg8h8 Qf7f4 Re8f8 Ne5f7+ Kh8g8 Nf7xd6 Rf8xf4 Nd6c4 Rf4h4 Bc1xe3 Rh4xh2 OOO Bc6d5 Nc4d2 h7h5 Rd1g1 c7c6 Kc1d1 Kg8f7 a2a4 h5h4 Kd1e1 Rh2h1 Rg1xh1 Bd5xh1 Ke1f2 Kf7g6 Nd2f3 Bg7f6 Be3f4 Bf6d8 Bf4b8 a7a6 Nf3e5+ Kg6f6 Kf2g1 Bh1e4 Kg1h2 Kf6f5 c3c4
 40/66	11:39	 386.449.862	552.544	-0,07	Ne5xc6 Qd6xc6 Bc1h6 Qc6xc2 OO Bf6xd4+ Kg1h1 Re8e6 Ra1c1 Qc2xb2 Bh6xf8 Re6g6 Qh5h3 Kg8xf8 Rc1xc7 Bd4f6 Rc7xa7 Kf8g7 Ra7a3 b6b5 Ra3e3 Qb2c2 a2a3 Bf6d4 Re3g3 Qc2c6 Qh3f5 e4e3+ Qf5f3 e3e2 Rf1e1 Qc6xf3+ Rg3xf3 Kg7f8 Rf3f4 Bd4e3 Rf4e4 Be3f2 Re4xe2 Bf2xe1 Re2xe1 Rg6c6
 40/42	11:39	 386.449.862	552.544	 0,00	Qh5h6 Re8xe5 d4xe5 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1f4 Qd6xh6 Bf4xh6 Be5xb2 Bh6xf8 Bb2xa1 Ke1d2 Ba1e5 Kd2e3 h7h5 Rg1g5 Be5xh2 Rg5xh5+ Kh8g8 Bf8e7 Bh2g1+ Ke3f4 Bg1d4 Rh5g5+ Kg8h7 Rg5h5+
 40/17	11:39	 386.449.862	552.544	 0,00	Bc1e3 Qd6b4+ c2c3 Qb4xb2 Ra1c1 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 d4xe5 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Re8xg8 Qh5h6 Rg8g2 Qh6f8+ Rg2g8
 40/62	11:39	 386.449.862	552.544	+0,10	Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1g5 Bf6xe5 d4xe5 Re8xe5 Qh5h4 f7f6 Bg5h6 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Kh8xg8 Qh4g4+ Kg8f7 Qg4g7+ Kf7e6 Qg7g8+ Ke6d7 Bh6f4 Qd6e6 OOO+ Re5d5 Qg8xh7+ Qe6e7 Rd1xd5+ Bc6xd5 Qh7xe7+ Kd7xe7 Bf4xc7 b6b5 Kc1d2 Ke7e6 b2b3 Ke6f5 Bc7d8 Bd5f7 Kd2e3 Bf7h5 c2c3 a7a6 Ke3d4 Bh5f7 h2h4 Bf7e6 h4h5 Kf5g5 Kd4xe4 Be6f5+ Ke4d5 Bf5b1 a2a3 Kg5xh5
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[...]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 50/89	46:45	1.430.240.418	509.849	-1,08	Rh1f1 Bf6g7 c2c3 e4e3 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7 Qh5xf7+ Kg8h8 Qf7f4 Re8f8 Ne5f7+ Kh8g8 Nf7xd6 Rf8xf4 Nd6c4 Rf4h4 Bc1xe3 Bc6d5 Nc4e5 Rh4xh2 OOO Rh2e2 Be3f4 Bd5xa2 Rd1g1 Ba2d5 Ne5g4 Kg8h8 Bf4xc7 h7h5 Ng4e5 Bg7h6+ Kc1b1 Kh8h7 Ne5d7 Re2g2 Rg1f1 Bd5b3 d4d5 h5h4 d5d6 Bh6f4 Nd7f8+ Kh7g8 Nf8e6 Bf4xd6 Bc7xd6 Bb3xe6 Rf1h1 h4h3 Bd6c7
 50/74	46:45	1.430.240.418	509.849	 0,00	Ne5xc6 Qd6xc6 Bc1h6 Qc6xc2 OO Bf6xd4+ Kg1h1 Re8e6 Bh6xf8 Re6g6 Qh5h3 Kg8xf8 Ra1c1 Qc2xb2 Rc1xc7 Bd4f6 Rc7xa7 Qb2c2 Ra7b7 e4e3 Qh3f3 Qc2xa2 Rb7b8+ Kf8g7 Rb8e8 Bf6g5 Re8e4 Rg6f6 Qf3g2 Rf6xf1+ Qg2xf1 Qa2d5 Qf1f3 Qd5c5 Kh1g2 Qc5c2+ Kg2g3 Qc2c7+ Kg3g2 Qc7c2+
 50/42	46:45	1.430.240.418	509.849	 0,00	Qh5h6 Re8xe5 d4xe5 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1f4 Qd6xh6 Bf4xh6 Be5xb2 Bh6xf8 Bb2xa1 Ke1d2 Ba1e5 Kd2e3 h7h5 Rg1g5 Be5xh2 Rg5xh5+ Kh8g8 Bf8e7 Bh2g1+ Ke3f4 Bg1d4 Rh5g5+ Kg8h7 Rg5h5+
 50/18	46:45	1.430.240.418	509.849	 0,00	Bc1e3 Qd6b4+ c2c3 Qb4xb2 Ra1c1 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 d4xe5 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Re8xg8 Qh5h6 Rg8g6 Qh6f8+ Rg6g8 Qf8h6
 50/63	46:45	1.430.240.418	509.849	+0,02	Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1g5 Bf6xe5 d4xe5 Re8xe5 Qh5h4 f7f6 Bg5h6 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Kh8xg8 Qh4g4+ Kg8f7 Qg4g7+ Kf7e8 Qg7g8+ Ke8d7 Bh6f4 Qd6e6 OOO+ Re5d5 Qg8xh7+ Qe6e7 Rd1xd5+ Bc6xd5 Qh7xe7+ Kd7xe7 Bf4xc7 b6b5 Kc1d2 f6f5 b2b3 Ke7f6 h2h4 Kf6g6 Kd2e3 Kg6h5 Ke3f4 Kh5xh4 Kf4xf5 e4e3 Kf5f4 e3e2 Bc7a5 Bd5f7 Kf4e3 Bf7g6 c2c4 b5xc4 b3xc4 Bg6f7 Ke3d4 Kh4g4 a2a3 Kg4f5 c4c5 e2e1Q Ba5xe1
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 51/81	51:40	1.575.981.381	508.452	-1,16	Rh1f1 Bf6g7 c2c3 e4e3 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7 Qh5xf7+ Kg8h8 Qf7f4 Re8f8 Ne5f7+ Kh8g8 Nf7xd6 Rf8xf4 Nd6c4 Rf4h4 Bc1xe3 Bc6d5 Nc4d2 Rh4xh2 OOO h7h5 Rd1g1 Rh2h1 Rg1xh1 Bd5xh1 Be3f4 c7c6 a2a4 Kg8f7 Kc1d1 h5h4 Kd1e2 Kf7e6 Ke2f2 Bh1d5 Bf4g5 h4h3 Kf2g3 Ke6f5 Bg5e3 Bd5g2 Nd2c4 Bg7f6 Nc4d6+ Kf5e6 Be3f4 Bf6d8 Nd6c8 a7a5 Bf4e5 Ke6d5 Nc8d6 c6c5 b2b3 Bg2f1 Kg3g4
 51/40	51:40	1.575.981.381	508.452	 0,00	Ne5xc6 Qd6xc6 Bc1h6 Qc6xc2 OO Bf6xd4+ Kg1h1 Re8e6 Bh6xf8 Re6g6 Qh5h3 Kg8xf8 Ra1c1 Qc2xb2 Rc1xc7 Bd4f6 Rc7xa7 Qb2c2 Ra7b7 e4e3 Qh3f3 Qc2xa2 Rb7b8+ Kf8g7 Rb8e8 Bf6g5 Re8e4 Rg6f6 Qf3g2 Rf6xf1+ Qg2xf1 Qa2d5 Qf1f3 Qd5c5 Kh1g2 Qc5c2+ Kg2g3 Qc2c7+ Kg3g2
 51/42	51:40	1.575.981.381	508.452	 0,00	Qh5h6 Re8xe5 d4xe5 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1f4 Qd6xh6 Bf4xh6 Be5xb2 Bh6xf8 Bb2xa1 Ke1d2 Ba1e5 Kd2e3 h7h5 Rg1g5 Be5xh2 Rg5xh5+ Kh8g8 Bf8e7 Bh2g1+ Ke3f4 Bg1d4 Rh5g5+ Kg8h7 Rg5h5+ Kh7g6 Rh5g5+
 51/17	51:40	1.575.981.381	508.452	 0,00	Bc1e3 Qd6b4+ c2c3 Qb4xb2 Ra1c1 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 d4xe5 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Re8xg8 Qh5h6 Rg8g6 Qh6f8+ Rg6g8
 51/72	51:40	1.575.981.381	508.452	+0,02	Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1g5 Bf6xe5 d4xe5 Re8xe5 Qh5h4 f7f6 Bg5h6 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Kh8xg8 Qh4g4+ Kg8f7 Qg4g7+ Kf7e8 Qg7g8+ Ke8d7 Bh6f4 Qd6e6 OOO+ Re5d5 Qg8xh7+ Qe6e7 Rd1xd5+ Bc6xd5 Qh7xe7+ Kd7xe7 Bf4xc7 b6b5 Kc1d2 f6f5 b2b3 Ke7f6 Kd2e3 Kf6g5 a2a4 b5xa4 b3xa4 Bd5g8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 52/82	55:32	1.689.503.690	507.110	-1,10	Rh1f1 Bf6g7 c2c3 e4e3 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7 Qh5xf7+ Kg8h8 Qf7f4 Re8f8 Ne5f7+ Kh8g8 Nf7xd6 Rf8xf4 Nd6c4 Rf4h4 Bc1xe3 Bc6d5 Nc4e5 Rh4xh2 OOO Rh2e2 Be3f4 Bd5xa2 Ne5d3 Ba2b3 Rd1g1 Kg8h8 Rg1f1 Bb3c4 Rf1f3 Bc4d5 Rf3g3 c7c6 Kc1d1 Re2g2 Rg3xg2 Bd5xg2 Bf4b8 Bg2e4 Nd3e5 a7a6 Ne5d7 b6b5 Nd7c5 Be4f3+ Kd1c2 h7h5 Nc5xa6 Kh8h7 b2b3 Kh7g6 Kc2d3 Kg6f5 c3c4 h5h4 Kd3e3
 52/82	55:32	1.689.503.690	507.110	-0,01	Ne5xc6 Qd6xc6 Bc1h6 Qc6xc2 OO Bf6xd4+ Kg1h1 Re8e6 Bh6xf8 Re6g6 Qh5h3 Kg8xf8 Ra1c1 Qc2xb2 Rc1xc7 Bd4f6 Rc7xa7 Qb2c2 Ra7b7 e4e3 Qh3f3 Qc2xa2 Rb7b8+ Kf8g7 Rb8e8 Bf6g5 Re8e4 Rg6f6 Qf3g2 Rf6xf1+ Qg2xf1 Qa2d5 Qf1f3 Qd5b5 Re4g4 Qb5e5 Rg4g2 h7h6 h2h4 e3e2 Qf3xe2 Qe5xe2 Rg2xe2 Bg5xh4 Re2b2 Bh4d8 Kh1g2 h6h5 Rb2b4 Kg7g6 Kg2h2 f7f6
 52/38	55:32	1.689.503.690	507.110	 0,00	Qh5h6 Re8xe5 d4xe5 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1f4 Qd6xh6 Bf4xh6 Be5xb2 Bh6xf8 Bb2xa1 Ke1d2 Ba1e5 Kd2e3 h7h5 Rg1g5 Be5xh2 Rg5xh5+ Kh8g8 Bf8e7 Bh2g1+ Ke3f4 Bg1d4 Rh5g5+ Kg8h7 Rg5h5+
 52/17	55:32	1.689.503.690	507.110	 0,00	Bc1e3 Qd6b4+ c2c3 Qb4xb2 Ra1c1 Bf6xe5 Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 d4xe5 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Re8xg8 Qh5h6 Rg8g6 Qh6f8+ Rg6g8
 52/68	55:32	1.689.503.690	507.110	+0,02	Rh1g1+ Kg8h8 Bc1g5 Bf6xe5 d4xe5 Re8xe5 Qh5h4 f7f6 Bg5h6 Rf8g8 Rg1xg8+ Kh8xg8 Qh4g4+ Kg8f7 Qg4g7+ Kf7e8 Qg7g8+ Ke8d7 Bh6f4 Qd6e6 OOO+ Re5d5 Qg8xh7+ Qe6e7 Rd1xd5+ Bc6xd5 Qh7xe7+ Kd7xe7 Bf4xc7 b6b5 b2b3 f6f5 Kc1d2 Ke7f6 h2h4 Kf6g6 Kd2e3 Kg6h5 Ke3f4 Kh5xh4 Kf4xf5 e4e3 Kf5f4 e3e2 Bc7a5 Bd5e6 Kf4e3 Be6g4 Ba5e1+ Kh4h3 Ke3f2 Kh3h4 a2a4 b5xa4 b3xa4 Kh4h5
There were 218,139 TB hits to the full set of 3, 4 and 5-man Syzygy EGTB.

------------
Carbec wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:28 am[...]
What do you think ?

Philippe
It would be an unpleasant position for me, regardless of the side.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.
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