Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

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swami
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by swami »

How's Niemann able to play at 3000 rating level in Bullet games online, in the years 2020-2022?

Anyone who is a serious Bullet/Blitz chess player online knows that it's practically impossible to cheat in Bullet games (1+0)

He's telecasted live in Twitch simultaneously while playing bullet games even and still maintained that high a rating which is equivalent to fide of 2650+

It's easier to cheat in OTB than it is to cheat in Bullet games online, that's fact.

Nakamura, hailed the king of Bullet, knows that Niemann is upcoming rival in Bullet chess
lkaufman
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by lkaufman »

swami wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:49 am How's Niemann able to play at 3000 rating level in Bullet games online, in the years 2020-2021?

Anyone who is a serious chess player online knows that it's practically impossible to cheat in Bullet games (1+0)

He's telecasted live in twitch simultaneously while playing bullet games even and still maintained that high a rating which is equivalent to fide of 2650+

It's easier to cheat in OTB than it is to cheat in Bullet games online, that's fact.
I've been told that there is software that does make it possible to cheat even at 1 + 0 bullet chess, though I would think that it would be pretty obvious to the chess.com cheat detection as it would have to be pretty much automatic. So I wouldn't say it's easier to cheat OTB than in online bullet chess, though it might be easier to catch the bullet cheater. Having a 3000 bullet rating on chess.com, if no cheating was involved, would mean that he is at least a strong grandmaster, but it doesn't tell us whether he did or didn't cheat in longer games.
Komodo rules!
glennsamuel32
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by glennsamuel32 »

emadsen wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:20 am Chess.com just posted the Hans Niemann Report.
Thanks for the report !!

X. The Sinquefield Cup and the Game with Magnus Carlsen

Finally, the game between Hans and Magnus at the Sinquefield Cup does, on its own, merit analysis, as
its result, circumstances, and explanations are unique and have become the object of immense public
debate and controversy. Hans beat Magnus in a classical game with the black pieces, breaking Magnus’
53-game unbeaten streak and becoming one of only five players in the past five years to beat Magnus
while he was playing with white pieces.22 Hans explained that his success was not “anything special,”
and largely due to Magnus having “played quite poorly,” and having “miraculously” prepared specifically
for the opening that Magnus played. “By some miracle I had checked this today and it’s like, it’s such a
ridiculous miracle that I don’t even remember why I checked it.




In fact, Magnus has only played 4.g3 twice previously (both before 2010), and the position after Hans
castled on move four had never been seen in any of Magnus’ games. Hans in a later interview commented
that Magnus had previously played the opening against Wesley So in the 2018 London Chess Classic,
but there is no such game on record. Magnus did play a g3 Nimzo-Indian against Wesley So in a rapid
game in Kolkota in 2019, but the move order and emerging position in that game had no similarities to
the game against Hans. Hans’s 9…cxd4 had only been played once previously, in a June 2022 Titled
Tuesday game between Rasmus Svane and Stelios Halkias.


In the post-game analysis, on move 13 Hans proposed the error 13. Qh4?? Saying, “Qh4 might be a move
here. This move loses the bishop on g5 without any obvious compensation or follow-up. This moment,
among others, led to criticism from other top chess players who were surprised that a player who could
outplay Magnus so easily with the black pieces could then suggest such a move in a game that he had just
played. After proposing the move, Hans requested to see the engine evaluation saying, “What does it say?
What does the engine say?” to confirm that this move lacked a purpose.This analysis and dependence
on the engine seem to be at odds with the level of preparation that Hans claimed was at play in the game
and the level of analysis needed to defeat the World Chess Champion

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxqFdMI3f-Rx ... qHO5i06bR2


:shock: :shock: :shock:
Judge without bias, or don't judge at all...
crem
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by crem »

dkappe wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:56 am An important line from the report: “…while Hans has had a record-setting and remarkable rise in rating and strength, in our view there is a lack of concrete statistical evidence that he cheated in his game with Magnus or in any other over-the-board (“OTB”)—i.e., in-person—games.”
Also there:
Our investigation has revealed that while there has been some noteworthy online play that has caught our attention as suspicious since August 2020, we are unaware of any evidence that Hans has engaged in online cheating since then.
and
Chess.com is unaware of any concrete evidence proving that Hans is cheating over the board or has ever cheated over the board.
Last edited by crem on Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spliffjiffer
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Spliffjiffer »

emadsen wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:26 am
emadsen wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:20 am [Hans] seems to be playing a character: the wild-eyed, misunderstood genius who cannot suffer fools and is impatient with the unimaginative, bourgeois chess establishment.

Whether this is based on...

1) Derogatory comments Hans endured while stuck in the 2400s (not smart enough, not talented enough, etc) that inspired him to seek revenge by doubling-down his efforts, leading to a legitimate rise to the elite level, or...

2) Hans realizing there's no audience for the bad-boy, trash-talking villain in the 2400s; that no one cares unless the villain rises to the top and knocks the kings and princes off their thrones; so Hans decided to leverage computer assistance to get himself on the stage.

... is unclear to me at this time.
I read the entire Hans Niemann Report. I am leaning towards explanation #2. The evidence of Hans cheating online is damning. As a consequence, I question the man's motivations. Does he want to improve his skill or does he want attention and adulation? On the other hand, the Over The Board (OTB) evidence demonstrates serious abnormalities but is not conclusive.

I just can't get past the man's cocky attitude, snarky interviews, and rage and bravado. I can't reconcile it with his incoherent post-game analysis. Especially when compared to Vassily Ivanchuk's famous post-game analysis of an entire game completely from memory with no visual board to prompt him. I'm skeptical that Hans' zest for put-downs and reticence to discuss details of his OTB thought process are simply an odd personality quirk or a manifestation of some-can-do-but-can't-explain.

It's looking more and more likely he simply shifted arenas for his devious conquest from online to OTB. Perhaps for vengeance, fame, money, or a taste of each. Or maybe just for the amusement of punking us all, satisfying some psychological need known only to provocateurs, as I suggested with my earlier reference to Andy Kaufman.

Having achieved a respectable degree of proficiency professionally and in my chess engine hobby, I have come to appreciate the hard-won knowledge earned by a long slog up the learning curve. I respect expert opinion. So I find it exceedingly difficult to toss aside the concerns of Magnus Carlsen, Ian Nepomniachtchi, Fabiano Caruana, Hikaru Nakamura, and other high-caliber players who have stated or insinuated there's something suspect with Hans' chess. It's erratic, disjointed, alien.

I realize what I've expressed here is subjective opinion. While I spend most of my professional time and energy on more objective matters of software development, I live in a world of human beings. In my experience it's personally and professionally valuable to form opinions of people's character. I- we all- must navigate their idiosyncrasies, disguised motivations, veils of personal mythology, calculations of political expediency, etc.

I'd stay the hell away from a character like Hans Niemann.

disgusting ..he is still young enough to change his attitude but so far he seems to give a fuck on sincerity and honesty...very sad :-(
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.
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M ANSARI
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by M ANSARI »

crem wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:12 am
dkappe wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:56 am An important line from the report: “…while Hans has had a record-setting and remarkable rise in rating and strength, in our view there is a lack of concrete statistical evidence that he cheated in his game with Magnus or in any other over-the-board (“OTB”)—i.e., in-person—games.”
Also there:
Our investigation has revealed that while there has been some noteworthy online play that has caught our attention as suspicious since August 2020, we are unaware of any evidence that Hans has engaged in online cheating since then.
and
Chess.com is unaware of any concrete evidence proving that Hans is cheating over the board or has ever cheated over the board.

OK ... so it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... but we haven't seen it move so we cannot defintively say that it waddles like a duck! We have seen a lot of data that it moves from point A to point B and point B to point C ... but we have not seen actual proof of the movement. So we cannot say with a 99.998% certainity that it is a duck!

For chess to survive as a spectator sport, cheating has to be stopped. No honest chess player should have to face someone like Hans Nieman. The guy is a geniuine asshole and creep cheater and liar. Not everyone can say "these super GM's are supposed to be good but they play terrible" while inside knowing that you cheated against them. This is a good opportunity to make a strong stand against cheating and kudos to Magnus Carlsen for sticking out his neck and pushing this issue and exposing how inept FIDE is.
Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Alexander Schmidt »

swami wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:49 am It's easier to cheat in OTB than it is to cheat in Bullet games online, that's fact.
No, it is easy to cheat in bullet games. You can simply let engines play. The hard thing is to make it play like a human so that an anti-cheat-software won't detect it. But this also should be doable: Take Leela with a human nn, and implement some human behaviour. Then try it with fake accounts until the detector don't recognize it.
emadsen wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:26 am Especially when compared to Vassily Ivanchuk's famous post-game analysis of an entire game completely from memory with no visual board to prompt him.
This is also the point where I am sure, he is cheating. Especially if you look at the video of his game against Carlsen where he doesn't even look at the board. His interviews show, that he cannot analyze without a board.

Obvioulsy it is hard to find sufficient evidence if someone is cheating OTB, and the technical progress will invite more and more to do it. The only chance I see is to ban every online cheater for lifetime from official tournaments, or use statistics like the STDACPL. No mercy.

Let me add: Until there is a solution for that, the only solution for real GM's is not to play against obvious cheaters.
Last edited by Alexander Schmidt on Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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mclane
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by mclane »

Exactly.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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M ANSARI
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by M ANSARI »

Alexander Schmidt wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:50 am
swami wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:49 am It's easier to cheat in OTB than it is to cheat in Bullet games online, that's fact.
No, it is easy to cheat in bullet games. You can simply let engines play. The hard thing is to make it play like a human so that an anti-cheat-software won't detect it. But this also should be doable: Take Leela with a human nn, and implement some human behaviour. Then try it with fake accounts unless the detector don't recognize it.
emadsen wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:26 am Especially when compared to Vassily Ivanchuk's famous post-game analysis of an entire game completely from memory with no visual board to prompt him.
This is also the point where I am sure, he is cheating. Especially if you look at the video of his game against Carlsen where he doesn't even look at the board. His interviews show, that he cannot analyze without a board.

Obvioulsy it is hard to find sufficient evidence if someone is cheating OTB, and the technical progress will invite more and more to do it. The only chance I see is to ban every online cheater for lifetime from official tournaments, or use statistics like the STDACPL. No mercy.

Let me add: Until there is a solution for that, the only solution for real GM's is not to play against obvious cheaters.
100% agree. If someone feels it is OK to cheat so blatantly then he should not be handled with baby gloves. That would be unfair to other honest competitors. Chess.com does not come out looking good in this report. They just tap the person on the hand and say bad boy and let them back in. Obviously their incentive is money and if cheating would not hurt their financial model they would let run riot. Fortunately it does hurt their financial model and they feel they need to control it. Any cheater that cheats on that website should be outed and exposed ... no reason to pussy foot around the issue.
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M ANSARI
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by M ANSARI »

swami wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:49 am How's Niemann able to play at 3000 rating level in Bullet games online, in the years 2020-2022?

Anyone who is a serious Bullet/Blitz chess player online knows that it's practically impossible to cheat in Bullet games (1+0)

He's telecasted live in Twitch simultaneously while playing bullet games even and still maintained that high a rating which is equivalent to fide of 2650+

It's easier to cheat in OTB than it is to cheat in Bullet games online, that's fact.

Nakamura, hailed the king of Bullet, knows that Niemann is upcoming rival in Bullet chess
I consider 1 0 bullet chess as a type of chess variant. Of course it is normal chess but a lot of what makes you a good bullet player at 1 0 is super fast mouse skills and being able to predict what move your opponent will play and then pre moving against it. Generally speaking the younger you are the better and faster your mouse skills are. Andrew Tang for example can challenge and beat even Magnus Carlsen at bullet. His mouse skills and premoving skills are insane and he can probably get several hundred ELO points right there. Also Hikaru in his heyday was incredible fast ... but has obviously slowed down quite a bit. Still the strongest bullet player on earth is Magnus Carlsen ... and that is simply because he has the strongest chess intuition. Even with his speed handicap against players like Andrew Tang ... he is just so strong that he can overcome by chess strength alone.

As for Hans ... he is 19 and probably rated around 2500 ELO FIDE (real rating not his fake rating). So he should be around 2900 to 3000 ELO. There was a 1 0 bullet match against Nardosky a few days ago ... he did quite good ... but lost to Nardosky by around a 3 to 1 margin. Nardosky is a very strong bullet player but certainly not the best. I remember a bullet tournament where he played against Salem from UAE and lost to him. Salem is one of our local boys and rated around 2600 ELO. Funnily enough a few days ago I also saw a blitz match between Salem and non other than Magnus Carlsen. That didn't go well for our local boy ... I think was 16 to 3 or something like that.

If you look at the Benjamin Bok youtube channel ... he has his own take on Hans Nieman. His take is interesting because he is one of the people Hans cheated against. You could see Hans lose 4 or 5 games in a row ... get tilted ... and then start cheating and winning 5 games back. Benjamin Bok is rated around 2600 ELO FIDE and he seems to pretty much spank Hans Nieman in blitz ... at least when Hans doesn't use any fishy help. You can see the games flagged by Chess.com and they coincide to just after Hans lost several games in a row.