CCT Is Better Than WCCC

[Denis P. Mendoza]

My alarm clock is not that expensive...

Yes, but it's the waking up to it that is the hard part...

If Bob's alarm clock tip won't, I remember a aure alternative for it.
Watch this:

[IWB]

Hello

What if one of these unknown newcomers win an online event? Will it be accepted? Is it worth something? Isn't it even easier to enter 'clones*' in a pure online event?

Compared to a 'presence' event it is for sure a point - isn' it?

Bye
Ingo

PS: Please no dicussion about what a 'clone' is. A medium talented programer is able to fake any output of any UCI engine!

[Zach Wegner]

If Bob's alarm clock tip won't, I remember a aure alternative for it.
Watch this:

I saw the title and it brought back memories... I've seen that one so many times!! One of the best shows in history IMO.

[Tony Thomas]

Hello

What if one of these unknown newcomers win an online event? Will it be accepted? Is it worth something? Isn't it even easier to enter 'clones*' in a pure online event?

Compared to a 'presence' event it is for sure a point - isn' it?

Bye
Ingo

PS: Please no dicussion about what a 'clone' is. A medium talented programer is able to fake any output of any UCI engine!

How many relatively unknown programs are competing in CCT? I dont see any that I havent heard about before.

[pijl]

I think there is a compelling reason to have CCT type events to replace WCCC.

I do think there is a need for CCT events. But I do not agree there is no need for a WCCC.

For several good and obvious reasons:

-CCT type events is easy to access, attracts many participants, (Currently it is 39, best was 60 something, If CCT is made to sound like WCCC, I’m sure there will be around 100 engines)

Agreed. This makes the CCT attractive. But it is also one of its major drawbacks. Because of the easy access, it is also easy to drop out. I haven't been in a single CCT where there were no people that overslept, had Internet problems or did not show up for other reasons. This disrupts the tournament

-Anyone around the globe can join the event without having to worry about the time difference problems.

This one I don't get. The CCT is usually somewhere in the middle of the night when you're either in Australia or California. For some people that is a problem.

-No need to travel far to Samoa Island just to meet people (who could make it in a race!) face to face and look at their friendly expression and keep them in memory for sentimental reason...

No need to travel. Agreed. But there is more into meeting people than to have an opportunity to stare them in the eyes. It is much easier to chat when you're in the same room, have social events together and really get to know eachother. This is the major reason why I try to travel to as many tournaments as I can.

-This is computer chess where ‘engines’ play, so the online tournament is more apt for such events, human presence is only needed for the human tournaments where chances of cheating are minimal.

This is a reason for computer chess tournaments as well. Suppose I take a GUI like chesspartner, load Rybka, and let the GUI kibitz the output. Who is going to know that? Cheating with engines is possible too. You could argue to have a chess server on site to let the programs play it out automatically and then retreat to the bar, but that is much less fun!

-financial reasons.

Yes, the WCCC is expensive. Not really because of the location (flying is cheap nowadays), but more due to the length of the tournament for which you will have to arrange days off from work, pay for the hotel, food, drinks etc.

- creates more competition, good enough to find the winner out of many stronger engines as opposed to the finding the winner amongst 10 engines.(not a good way to award WCCC champ)

I do not really agree with this statement. Look at the latest CCT which was disrupted by internet disconnections, late arrivals etc. And there were not many strong engines that you would not find at the WCCC either. It is mainly more of the amateurs that will participate. At the latest WCCC I participated with the Baron. It ended at the 9th place out of 12. At CCT9 the Baron was 11th out of 52

-most WCCC's happened in Europe, unfair to US and rest of the world...where there are fair amount of engines..

As I pointed out, most of the costs would be to stay in a hotel, food, etc. Not the travel. I estimated that if I particpated in Turin (WCCC 2006), it would have cost me about 1700 euros, of which more than half would be due to the hotel. So much for the European advantage. Coming from the US that would cost only a few hunderd dollars extra.

I couldn’t find any sensible reason provided by others who support WCCC type personal attendance tournaments.
Dont you think its time for an online WCCC?

As I participate in both types of tournaments I don't mind more of them. I do see the problems that are associated with personal attendance tournaments, of which the costs and duration are probably the most important ones.
I'm trying to address that by organizing a tournament myself, june 28-29 2008 in Belgium. Personal attendance of the programmer is required, but trying to limit both duration and costs for participants. If you want to, you can find some more details on my site: Chess Programmers Tournament. I'll work on finalizing the conditions and open registration this week.
Richard.

[Guetti]

Hello

What if one of these unknown newcomers win an online event? Will it be accepted? Is it worth something? Isn't it even easier to enter 'clones*' in a pure online event?

Compared to a 'presence' event it is for sure a point - isn' it?

Bye
Ingo

PS: Please no dicussion about what a 'clone' is. A medium talented programer is able to fake any output of any UCI engine!

I wonder what would prevent them to enter a clone into WCCC? Where is the difference?

- Andy

[swami]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

I do think there is a need for CCT events. But I do not agree there is no need for a WCCC.

I should have phrased it better, I think it is best to have 'online WCCC' as well as CCT.

As for WCCC organised by ICGA, let them run the event...I wanted OWCCC to be just as popular as WCCC.

Agreed. This makes the CCT attractive. But it is also one of its major drawbacks. Because of the easy access, it is also easy to drop out. I haven't been in a single CCT where there were no people that overslept, had Internet problems or did not show up for other reasons. This disrupts the tournament

These things happen, there's no end to it, I can only say that it's their wish or it's their problem, when there exists online World Computer Championship, it's prestigious and sounds important enough for these people to log their engine to the server in time. Appointing 2 or more TD's to have close monitoring would help.

This one I don't get. The CCT is usually somewhere in the middle of the night when you're either in Australia or California. For some people that is a problem.

Like I said, if online WCCC is prestigious enough then they would try to be punctual to spend just 2 days in a year no matter whatever time it is in the place where they live.

No need to travel. Agreed. But there is more into meeting people than to have an opportunity to stare them in the eyes. It is much easier to chat when you're in the same room, have social events together and really get to know eachother. This is the major reason why I try to travel to as many tournaments as I can.

Sorry but this is computer chess, where engines play, It's great to socialize with people having similar interest as yours, but it is not a good argument to support the personal attendance events, some half of the programmers do not show up in such events, their book makers, operators,beta testers or a team member only do instead.

This is a reason for computer chess tournaments as well. Suppose I take a GUI like chesspartner, load Rybka, and let the GUI kibitz the output. Who is going to know that? Cheating with engines is possible too. You could argue to have a chess server on site to let the programs play it out automatically and then retreat to the bar, but that is much less fun!

in the first place, CCT's only allow trusted operators and known engines/programmers, even in your example such type of cheating could be easily detected even if a trusted member did that.

Yes, the WCCC is expensive. Not really because of the location (flying is cheap nowadays), but more due to the length of the tournament for which you will have to arrange days off from work, pay for the hotel, food, drinks etc.

Agreed. Human players can do that with sponsors or by representing the nation.But a programmer?where his engine is only playing,not himself?
It's hard to get the sponsor anyway.

I do not really agree with this statement. Look at the latest CCT which was disrupted by internet disconnections, late arrivals etc. And there were not many strong engines that you would not find at the WCCC either. It is mainly more of the amateurs that will participate. At the latest WCCC I participated with the Baron. It ended at the 9th place out of 12. At CCT9 the Baron was 11th out of 52

as I said if CCT is as prestigious as to be renamed "WOCCC' then I'm sure those programs that joined the ICGA's WCCC would definitely show up in WOCCC/CCT. Such as Shredder,Deep Sjeng,Loop List for example.

Only thing is that there is need to have some officially approved online World comp chess championship.

As I participate in both types of tournaments I don't mind more of them. I do see the problems that are associated with personal attendance tournaments, of which the costs and duration are probably the most important ones.
I'm trying to address that by organizing a tournament myself, june 28-29 2008 in Belgium. Personal attendance of the programmer is required, but trying to limit both duration and costs for participants. If you want to, you can find some more details on my site: Chess Programmers Tournament. I'll work on finalizing the conditions and open registration this week.
Richard.

Well,Thats great to know,Good luck.

[Rolf]

I strongly disagree with all your critical points. I wanted to write it down but then already Swami came out.

You asked for feedback on your website for The Baron. Let me do this in a manner that must please you. After I saw your picture on page one I understood why you are so much enjoying attending the direct contact with your collegues. Personally you are looking just great. You remind me of the German athlet Hingsen in declathon. I wish you all the best with your hobby. There will come a day when you will also enjoy the internet tournaments later in your age.

Let me add something that I could say from my own experience and what Bob told me about progress. You were the right candidate for a sort of cooperation of a group of programmers who share their work on a new program. We have so little time in life, so that we should trust each other. Perhaps it would help union of some who have a similar approach in the past. Well, just what I can give. May it open some new possibilities for the joy of us all. All the best to you.

[bob]

I think there is a compelling reason to have CCT type events to replace WCCC.

I do think there is a need for CCT events. But I do not agree there is no need for a WCCC.

For several good and obvious reasons:

-CCT type events is easy to access, attracts many participants, (Currently it is 39, best was 60 something, If CCT is made to sound like WCCC, I’m sure there will be around 100 engines)

Agreed. This makes the CCT attractive. But it is also one of its major drawbacks. Because of the easy access, it is also easy to drop out. I haven't been in a single CCT where there were no people that overslept, had Internet problems or did not show up for other reasons. This disrupts the tournament

-Anyone around the globe can join the event without having to worry about the time difference problems.

This one I don't get. The CCT is usually somewhere in the middle of the night when you're either in Australia or California. For some people that is a problem.

-No need to travel far to Samoa Island just to meet people (who could make it in a race!) face to face and look at their friendly expression and keep them in memory for sentimental reason...

No need to travel. Agreed. But there is more into meeting people than to have an opportunity to stare them in the eyes. It is much easier to chat when you're in the same room, have social events together and really get to know eachother. This is the major reason why I try to travel to as many tournaments as I can.

-This is computer chess where ‘engines’ play, so the online tournament is more apt for such events, human presence is only needed for the human tournaments where chances of cheating are minimal.

This is a reason for computer chess tournaments as well. Suppose I take a GUI like chesspartner, load Rybka, and let the GUI kibitz the output. Who is going to know that? Cheating with engines is possible too. You could argue to have a chess server on site to let the programs play it out automatically and then retreat to the bar, but that is much less fun!

-financial reasons.

Yes, the WCCC is expensive. Not really because of the location (flying is cheap nowadays), but more due to the length of the tournament for which you will have to arrange days off from work, pay for the hotel, food, drinks etc.

- creates more competition, good enough to find the winner out of many stronger engines as opposed to the finding the winner amongst 10 engines.(not a good way to award WCCC champ)

I do not really agree with this statement. Look at the latest CCT which was disrupted by internet disconnections, late arrivals etc. And there were not many strong engines that you would not find at the WCCC either. It is mainly more of the amateurs that will participate. At the latest WCCC I participated with the Baron. It ended at the 9th place out of 12. At CCT9 the Baron was 11th out of 52

-most WCCC's happened in Europe, unfair to US and rest of the world...where there are fair amount of engines..

As I pointed out, most of the costs would be to stay in a hotel, food, etc. Not the travel. I estimated that if I particpated in Turin (WCCC 2006), it would have cost me about 1700 euros, of which more than half would be due to the hotel. So much for the European advantage. Coming from the US that would cost only a few hunderd dollars extra.

I couldn’t find any sensible reason provided by others who support WCCC type personal attendance tournaments.
Dont you think its time for an online WCCC?

As I participate in both types of tournaments I don't mind more of them. I do see the problems that are associated with personal attendance tournaments, of which the costs and duration are probably the most important ones.
I'm trying to address that by organizing a tournament myself, june 28-29 2008 in Belgium. Personal attendance of the programmer is required, but trying to limit both duration and costs for participants. If you want to, you can find some more details on my site: Chess Programmers Tournament. I'll work on finalizing the conditions and open registration this week.
Richard.

The cheating stuff is irrelevant. Once can cheat when actually at a tournament, just as easily as if you are over the internet. That will never go away so long as computers are involved...

[Dann Corbit]

I think there is a compelling reason to have CCT type events to replace WCCC.

For several good and obvious reasons:

-CCT type events is easy to access, attracts many participants, (Currently it is 39, best was 60 something, If CCT is made to sound like WCCC, I’m sure there will be around 100 engines)

-Anyone around the globe can join the event without having to worry about the time difference problems.

-No need to travel far to Samoa Island just to meet people (who could make it in a race!) face to face and look at their friendly expression and keep them in memory for sentimental reason...

-This is computer chess where ‘engines’ play, so the online tournament is more apt for such events, human presence is only needed for the human tournaments where chances of cheating are minimal.

-financial reasons.

- creates more competition, good enough to find the winner out of many stronger engines as opposed to the finding the winner amongst 10 engines.(not a good way to award WCCC champ)

-most WCCC's happened in Europe, unfair to US and rest of the world...where there are fair amount of engines..

I couldn’t find any sensible reason provided by others who support WCCC type personal attendance tournaments.
Dont you think its time for an online WCCC?

Instead of a replacement, it's an alternative.