Cool move!

[Terry McCracken]

I don't see anything I would definitely call a win. However after what I suspect is probably the main line: 12...Nxg4 13.hxg4 Bxg4 14.Qf1 Qd7 15.Qg2 f5 I think White is under a lot of presure. Black can play Rf6, Raf8 and continue to build up his attack and it seems like it might be hard for White to untangle his pieces for the defence. If you set up the position after 15...f5 programs start to see good things for Black. Perhaps White has a better defense on move 14. Anyway I think it would take me a long time to form firm conclusions and I don't plan on looking at it long enough to do so. That is one reason I would like to know the source.

This is all correct - white has no good defence after Rf6!

Don't be too sure. I think it's harder to win then it looks.

[Ovyron]

This is all correct - white has no good defence after Rf6!

Did you see my line?

1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Qf1 Qd7 4. Qg2 f5 5. d4 Rf6 6. exf5 Qxf5 7. Nh4 Qh5 8. Re4 Bd1

I think that defense is good enough, so please tell me what does black do to win.

[smirobth]

This is all correct - white has no good defence after Rf6!

Did you see my line?

1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Qf1 Qd7 4. Qg2 f5 5. d4 Rf6 6. exf5 Qxf5 7. Nh4 Qh5 8. Re4 Bd1

I think that defense is good enough, so please tell me what does black do to win.

Against 5.d4 Black has better moves than playing Rf6 right away. For example after 5.d4 f4! I think White is dead.

[Ovyron]

Against 5.d4 Black has better moves than playing Rf6 right away. For example after 5.d4 f4! I think White is dead.

Thanks I'll take a look.

EDIT - Wait, I already analyzed that and that line was only to show that Rf6 didn't work, here's the updated line and I ask the same question:

1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Qf1 Qd7 4. Qg2 f5 5. Re1 Rf6
6. d4 exf4 7. cxd4 Bxd4 8. Bd5 Ba7

"I think that defense is good enough, so please tell me what does black do to win."

EDIT (again) Oh, I'll analize 1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Qf1 Qd7 4. Qg2 f5 5. Re1 Rf6
6. d4 f4 now...

[Terry McCracken]

I don't see anything I would definitely call a win. However after what I suspect is probably the main line: 12...Nxg4 13.hxg4 Bxg4 14.Qf1 Qd7 15.Qg2 f5 I think White is under a lot of presure. Black can play Rf6, Raf8 and continue to build up his attack and it seems like it might be hard for White to untangle his pieces for the defence. If you set up the position after 15...f5 programs start to see good things for Black. Perhaps White has a better defense on move 14. Anyway I think it would take me a long time to form firm conclusions and I don't plan on looking at it long enough to do so. That is one reason I would like to know the source.

This is all correct - white has no good defence after Rf6!

I just look at the game and downloaded it manually.

The first 15 moves are all book! No Credit to Rybka Sorry!

Also the book is flawed for White, 14. Nh2? is a terrible reply! Instead White should have played 14. Qf1!..f5 15. Qg2 and seems to hold. More work is needed but I do prefer Black.

Rybka never found 12..Nxg4 it was book plain and simple.

Terry

[Oscar L]

Aronian played this move 10 years before

[Event "RUS-Cup2"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Izmukhambetov, Salauat"]
[Black "Aronian, Levon"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C54"]
[WhiteElo "2530"]
[BlackElo "2390"]



1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d3 Nc6 4. Nf3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3 O-O 7. Bb3 a6 8. Nbd2
Ba7 9. Re1 Ng4 10. Re2 Kh8 11. h3 Nh6 12. g4 Nxg4 13. hxg4 Bxg4 14. Nh2 Qh4 15.
Nxg4 Qxg4+ 16. Kf1 f5 17. exf5 Rxf5 18. Ne4 Raf8 19. Ke1 Bxf2+ 20. Kd2 Rf3 21.
Kc2 Qg6 22. Nxf2 Rxf2 23. Be3 R2f3 24. Bd5 Rh3 25. Qg1 Qh5 26. Qg2 Rg3 27. Qxg3
Qxe2+ 28. Bd2 Ne7 29. Re1 Qh5 30. Rh1 Nf5 31. Rxh5 Nxg3 32. Rh3 Nf1 33. Rf3
Rxf3 34. Bxf3 b6 35. Kd1 h6 36. Be1 Ne3+ 37. Ke2 Nf5 38. Bg4 Ne7 39. Bh4 g5 40.
Bf2 Kg7 41. Bh5 Nd5 42. Bf3 Nf4+ 43. Ke3 Kf6 44. Bb7 a5 45. b4 h5 46. bxa5 bxa5
47. c4 h4 48. Be1 a4 49. a3 Ke6 50. Bc6 d5 51. Bxa4 dxc4 52. dxc4 Ng2+ 53. Kf2
Nxe1 54. Kxe1 Kd6 55. Bd1 Kc5 56. Be2 g4 57. Kf2 e4 58. Bf1 g3+ 59. Kg2 Kb6
1/2-1/2


Shredder-Rybka game was already discussed some time ago at rybka forum

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... an#pid5225


Anyhow can any other engine beat this?

Analysis by Chess Tiger 2007.1 :

1...Qf6 2.g5 Qg6
-/+ (-0.72) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1...Qf6 2.g5 Qg6
-/+ (-0.72) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1...Qf6 2.g5 Qg6
-/+ (-0.72) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1...Be6 2.g5 Ng8
-/+ (-0.88) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1...Be6 2.Qe1 Qf6 3.g5 Qg6
=/+ (-0.54) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1...Ng8 2.Nf1 Qf6 3.Ng5 Be6 4.Bxe6 fxe6
-/+ (-1.33) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1...Ng8 2.Nc4 Qf6 3.Ng5 Be6 4.Nxe6 fxe6
-/+ (-1.14) Depth: 5 00:00:00
1...Ng8 2.Nc4 b5 3.Ne3 Qf6 4.Nf5 Bb7
-/+ (-1.26) Depth: 6 00:00:00 13kN
1...Ng8 2.Nc4 b5 3.Ne3 Qf6 4.Nf5 Bb7
-/+ (-0.92) Depth: 7 00:00:00 16kN
1...Qf6 2.g5 Qf4 3.Qf1 Ng8 4.c4 Be6
-/+ (-1.14) Depth: 7 00:00:00 29kN
1...Qf6 2.Qf1 Nxg4 3.hxg4 Bxg4 4.Qg2 Qf4
-/+ (-1.22) Depth: 8 00:00:00 65kN
1...Qf6 2.Qf1 Nxg4 3.hxg4 Bxg4 4.Qg2 Qf4 5.c4 Kg8
-/+ (-1.16) Depth: 9 00:00:00 84kN
1...Qf6 2.Qf1 Nxg4 3.hxg4 Bxg4 4.Qg2 Qf4 5.Kf1 Kg8 6.Qh2 Qf6
-/+ (-0.90) Depth: 10 00:00:00 124kN
1...Qf6 2.Qf1 Nxg4 3.hxg4 Bxg4 4.Qg2 Qf4 5.Kf1 Bb6 6.Qh2 Qf6
-/+ (-1.00) Depth: 11 00:00:01 256kN
1...Qf6 2.Qf1 Ng8 3.Qg2 Na5 4.g5 Qg6 5.Nc4 Nxb3 6.axb3 Qh5 7.Kh2 Be6
=/+ (-0.46) Depth: 12 00:00:01 560kN
1...Ng8 2.Nc4 h5 3.Kg2 hxg4 4.hxg4 Nf6 5.Ng5 Bxg4 6.f3 Bh5
=/+ (-0.70) Depth: 12 00:00:02 1289kN
1...Ng8 2.Qf1 Na5 3.Qg2 Nxb3 4.Nxb3 f6 5.Be3 b6 6.d4 Bb7 7.d5 Rf7
=/+ (-0.54) Depth: 13 00:00:03 2795kN
1...Ng8 2.Qf1 Na5 3.Qg2 Nxb3 4.Nxb3 f6 5.Be3 b6 6.d4 Bb7 7.d5 Rf7 8.g5 f5
=/+ (-0.36) Depth: 14 00:00:05 4458kN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qf6 5.Nc4 Qg6 6.exf5 Qxf5 7.Nh4 Qe6
=/+ (-0.52) Depth: 14 00:00:06 4560kN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bh3 7.Qg5 Rf5 8.Qh4 Rf6
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 15 00:00:08 6328kN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bh3 7.Qg3 Bf5 8.Rh4 Bxd3
=/+ (-0.58) Depth: 16 00:00:10 8124kN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bxf3 7.Nxf3 Qf5 8.Nh4 Bxf2+ 9.Kh2 Qf6
-/+ (-0.98) Depth: 17 00:00:15 12673kN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bxf3 7.Nxf3 Qf5 8.Nh4 Qxf2+ 9.Qxf2 Rxf2 10.d4 Raf8
=/+ (-0.55) Depth: 18 00:00:18 16002kN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bxf3 7.Nxf3 Qf5 8.Nh4 Qxf2+ 9.Qxf2 Rxf2 10.d4 Raf8
=/+ (-0.55) Depth: 19 00:00:47 40943kN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bf5 7.Rh4 Bxd3 8.Qh3 Qxh3 9.Rxh3 e4
-/+ (-1.14) Depth: 20 00:01:35 87754kN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bf5 7.Rh4 Bxd3 8.Qh3 Qxh3 9.Rxh3 e4
-/+ (-1.14) Depth: 21 00:02:00 110mN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bf5 7.Rh4 Bxd3 8.Bd5 Qf5 9.Qg4 Rf6 10.Qxf5 Rxf5
-/+ (-0.88) Depth: 22 00:02:43 155mN
1...Nxg4 2.hxg4 Bxg4 3.Qf1 f5 4.Qg2 Qd7 5.Re1 fxe4 6.Rxe4 Bh3 7.Qg3 Bf5 8.Ng5 Bxe4 9.Ndxe4 d5 10.Qh4 h6 11.Ng3 Rxf2
-/+ (-0.88) Depth: 23 00:05:02 304mN

[smirobth]

Shredder-Rybka game was already discussed some time ago at rybka forum

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... an#pid5225

Probably so, but the link you provided was to a different post.

[Oscar L]

Sorry, you are right

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... an#pid7486

[Ovyron]

Yes, Nxg4 is the best move, but I don't see it "completely winning." My old variations seemed losing, but I think that one key element of the position is that Black's Bishop has at least the same value of White's Rook, so a good freeing move is to give the rook away.

This is my new main line:

1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Bd5 Qd7 4. Nh2 Rab8 5. Kh1 Bxe2 6. Qxe2 Ne7 7. Bb3 a5 8. Ndf3 a4

It has some counter-intuitive moves but that's the best I could find for both sides.

[PauloSoare]

Yes, Nxg4 is the best move, but I don't see it "completely winning." My old variations seemed losing, but I think that one key element of the position is that Black's Bishop has at least the same value of White's Rook, so a good freeing move is to give the rook away.

This is my new main line:

1... Nxg4 2. hxg4 Bxg4 3. Bd5 Qd7 4. Nh2 Rab8 5. Kh1 Bxe2 6. Qxe2 Ne7 7. Bb3 a5 8. Ndf3 a4

It has some counter-intuitive moves but that's the best I could find for both sides.

Instead 3...Qd7, maybe 3...Qf6 it´s better, because at least
blacks takes the white pawn in f and stay with pawns in g and h
passed.

Paulo Soares