Nezhmetdinov - Chernikov - 1962 - Queen Sac

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

any shorter search that is renewed on every ply is infinitely more reliable than even a very long search from the root position; for example, SF will see mate in 3 in 0.0001 seconds, while the same mate in, say 27, will never be seen by the engine. it simply does too many formulistic things pruning away good moves, like following pv, when it should not, pruning away good moves due to other formulas or bad move ordering, etc.

so, of course, a shallow search that is renewed at every ply is much more accurate.

please do the way I suggest: push the go button, let the engine think 3-4 sec., then push the go button again, let the engine think for 3-4 sec. again, and push go again, etc.

in this way, you can even check different lines.

Oh you poor not-understood genius. Maybe my 1000 euros offer will help you realize what a genius you are. Just accept it and play, don't be shy, you can't lose, you have your LRB method

better take my advice and look more carefully at the lines I posted, then you will probably understand something.

eval is always objective, and I trust it; search can go astray at very big depths because of the innumerable lines, but eval, even if only eval at the root, if correct, is always objective.

I trust my eval, and that is why I am able to see the win.

[Milos]

any shorter search that is renewed on every ply is infinitely more reliable than even a very long search from the root position; for example, SF will see mate in 3 in 0.0001 seconds, while the same mate in, say 27, will never be seen by the engine. it simply does too many formulistic things pruning away good moves, like following pv, when it should not, pruning away good moves due to other formulas or bad move ordering, etc.

so, of course, a shallow search that is renewed at every ply is much more accurate.

please do the way I suggest: push the go button, let the engine think 3-4 sec., then push the go button again, let the engine think for 3-4 sec. again, and push go again, etc.

in this way, you can even check different lines.

Oh you poor not-understood genius. Maybe my 1000 euros offer will help you realize what a genius you are. Just accept it and play, don't be shy, you can't lose, you have your LRB method

better take my advice and look more carefully at the lines I posted, then you will probably understand something.

eval is always objective, and I trust it; search can go astray at very big depths because of the innumerable lines, but eval, even if only eval at the root, if correct, is always objective.

I trust my eval, and that is why I am able to see the win.

But you can't do a simple effort to demonstrate it, in order to win 1000 euros???
And you think anyone believes you???
C'mon, I am just gambling and you know for sure, so don't be a coward, shows us your real potential .

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

again, score changes in white favour.

one thing you can not understand, Bram, is that you can not prove that a won position is drawn or lost: in this way you would simply do a disservice the position, the commnuity, as well as yourself.

and the white position is won, Nezhmetdinov's move was objectively the best, as well as an elegant solution.

I would suggest to you and maybe some other people, to do the following: check the position the way I am doing it: instead of doing a full search from the root position with engines, simply force move by move from them with the go or whatever button, leaving the engine a couple of seconds' thought before pushing again. In this way you can suggest move to the engine from time to time in critical positions, moves the engine itself does not see, apart from that the engine's horizon will come closer with each new ply.

You are really worse troll than ARB. Do you really think that ppl are stupid and don't know how to analyse with engines so they need you to come and show them score after 10 moves played at bullet????
That is not even a half of one sample of MC. Do you even have an idea what MC means????
The only thing that matches your ignorance is your arrogance.

Ok, lets solve this once and for all. We play the position from the 12.Qxf6, you play white, I play black. One day per move TC.
If you win provide me with you account number and I will transfer you 1000 (ONE THOUSAND) EUROS.
However, if I manage to draw, I will provide you my bank account number and you will transfer me 100 (ONE HUNDRED) EUROS.
So basically I am giving you 1:10 odds and once in a life time opportunity to earn 1000 Euros in the easiest possible way. You basically won it, just need to demonstrate it over the board. No ifs and buts, enough of this ridiculous "analysis" of yours, you just need to provide your moves.
So my reply is 12...Ne2. Your turn.
[d]r1b2rk1/pp1ppp1p/5Qp1/q7/4P3/1BN1B3/PPP1nPPP/R4RK1 w - - 1 13

So please, either accept this challenge and put money where your mouth is, or shut up and stop trolling this forum forever. I think this is more than fair offer!

if you raise the offer 1000-fold, I will accept straigth away.
plus another million, if I win.

[Milos]

if you raise the offer 1000-fold, I will accept straigth away.
plus another million, if I win.

That would mean you'd have to pay 100k euros if you don't win, hm somehow I think I wouldn't get the money. But I still accept, even if I don't get any material satisfaction . So lets begin, I played 12... Ne2, now your turn!

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

if you raise the offer 1000-fold, I will accept straigth away.
plus another million, if I win.

That would mean you'd have to pay 100k euros if you don't win, hm somehow I think I wouldn't get the money. But I still accept, even if I don't get any material satisfaction . So lets begin, I played 12... Ne2, now your turn!

another try, this time with SF:

[pgn][Event "analysis"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.12.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 8 "]
[Black "Stockfish 8, owner"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "5k2/1p1r1p1p/r2N1P2/p1P1P1p1/3B4/1P5P/4q1P1/1R1R2K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[TimeControl "600+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. Re1 {-1.06/23 4} Qd3 {-1.16/21 5} 2. Red1 {-1.20/25 2} Qc2
{-0.96/22 2} 3. Rdc1 {-0.87/24 2} Qg6 {-0.93/24 4} 4. Bf2 {-1.02/24 2} Qd3 {-0.
76/23 3} 5. Rd1 {-0.84/26 3} Qc2 {-0.78/24 1} 6. Rdc1 {-0.88/24 2} Qa2 {-0.85/
22 1} 7. Bd4 {-0.83/23 2} h6 {-0.82/21 2} 8. Rb2 {-0.66/21 2} Qa3 {-0.95/21 1}
9. Re1 {-0.83/21 1} Qb4 {-0.81/19 2} 10. Re4 {-0.18/20 1} Rc6 {-0.47/22 2} 11.
Kh2 {-0.46/25 2} Kg8 {-0.45/19 3} 12. Rbe2 {0.00/24 2} b5 {0.00/23 1} 13. Bf2 {
0.00/24 1} Qa3 {0.28/22 3} 14. b4 {0.41/24 3} *

[/pgn]

SF is a bit sluggish here, needs 30 plies until starts favouring white.

still did not see a single white loss here even from SF, many positive white scores, on the other hand.

my advice would be though to use only Komodo for this particular position, as it has the best imbalance eval, although far from perfect. SF and H migth give you a very hard time at that, as both engines have awful imbalances.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

the fact that score in all tries only starts gradually improving for white should ring a bell, should not it.

there is no rule that if a score is negative and starts improving, the most it can get at is 0.0, of course, this only points to a bogus eval, and the score might also very easily change signs.

[Milos]

if you raise the offer 1000-fold, I will accept straigth away.
plus another million, if I win.

That would mean you'd have to pay 100k euros if you don't win, hm somehow I think I wouldn't get the money. But I still accept, even if I don't get any material satisfaction . So lets begin, I played 12... Ne2, now your turn!

another try, this time with SF:

[pgn][Event "analysis"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.12.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 8 "]
[Black "Stockfish 8, owner"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "5k2/1p1r1p1p/r2N1P2/p1P1P1p1/3B4/1P5P/4q1P1/1R1R2K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[TimeControl "600+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. Re1 {-1.06/23 4} Qd3 {-1.16/21 5} 2. Red1 {-1.20/25 2} Qc2
{-0.96/22 2} 3. Rdc1 {-0.87/24 2} Qg6 {-0.93/24 4} 4. Bf2 {-1.02/24 2} Qd3 {-0.
76/23 3} 5. Rd1 {-0.84/26 3} Qc2 {-0.78/24 1} 6. Rdc1 {-0.88/24 2} Qa2 {-0.85/
22 1} 7. Bd4 {-0.83/23 2} h6 {-0.82/21 2} 8. Rb2 {-0.66/21 2} Qa3 {-0.95/21 1}
9. Re1 {-0.83/21 1} Qb4 {-0.81/19 2} 10. Re4 {-0.18/20 1} Rc6 {-0.47/22 2} 11.
Kh2 {-0.46/25 2} Kg8 {-0.45/19 3} 12. Rbe2 {0.00/24 2} b5 {0.00/23 1} 13. Bf2 {
0.00/24 1} Qa3 {0.28/22 3} 14. b4 {0.41/24 3} *

[/pgn]

SF is a bit sluggish here, needs 30 plies until starts favouring white.

still did not see a single white loss here even from SF, many positive white scores, on the other hand.

my advice would be though to use only Komodo for this particular position, as it has the best imbalance eval, although far from perfect. SF and H migth give you a very hard time at that, as both engines have awful imbalances.

This is again some of your imaginary positions. Please since you accepted the challenge play from the main position posted and stop trolling. Expecting your move!
[d]r1b2rk1/pp1ppp1p/5Qp1/q7/4P3/1BN1B3/PPP1nPPP/R4RK1 w - - 1 13

Or you can just quit and then everyone will know that your are totally fake and nothing but an ARB clone .

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

if you raise the offer 1000-fold, I will accept straigth away.
plus another million, if I win.

That would mean you'd have to pay 100k euros if you don't win, hm somehow I think I wouldn't get the money. But I still accept, even if I don't get any material satisfaction . So lets begin, I played 12... Ne2, now your turn!

another try, this time with SF:

[pgn][Event "analysis"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.12.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 8 "]
[Black "Stockfish 8, owner"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "5k2/1p1r1p1p/r2N1P2/p1P1P1p1/3B4/1P5P/4q1P1/1R1R2K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[TimeControl "600+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. Re1 {-1.06/23 4} Qd3 {-1.16/21 5} 2. Red1 {-1.20/25 2} Qc2
{-0.96/22 2} 3. Rdc1 {-0.87/24 2} Qg6 {-0.93/24 4} 4. Bf2 {-1.02/24 2} Qd3 {-0.
76/23 3} 5. Rd1 {-0.84/26 3} Qc2 {-0.78/24 1} 6. Rdc1 {-0.88/24 2} Qa2 {-0.85/
22 1} 7. Bd4 {-0.83/23 2} h6 {-0.82/21 2} 8. Rb2 {-0.66/21 2} Qa3 {-0.95/21 1}
9. Re1 {-0.83/21 1} Qb4 {-0.81/19 2} 10. Re4 {-0.18/20 1} Rc6 {-0.47/22 2} 11.
Kh2 {-0.46/25 2} Kg8 {-0.45/19 3} 12. Rbe2 {0.00/24 2} b5 {0.00/23 1} 13. Bf2 {
0.00/24 1} Qa3 {0.28/22 3} 14. b4 {0.41/24 3} *

[/pgn]

SF is a bit sluggish here, needs 30 plies until starts favouring white.

still did not see a single white loss here even from SF, many positive white scores, on the other hand.

my advice would be though to use only Komodo for this particular position, as it has the best imbalance eval, although far from perfect. SF and H migth give you a very hard time at that, as both engines have awful imbalances.

This is again some of your imaginary positions. Please since you accepted the challenge play from the main position posted and stop trolling. Expecting your move!
[d]r1b2rk1/pp1ppp1p/5Qp1/q7/4P3/1BN1B3/PPP1nPPP/R4RK1 w - - 1 13

Or you can just quit and then everyone will know that your are totally fake and nothing but an ARB clone .

just to explain why running a 100 games match instead of renewed searches will perform much worse, and people migth see many draws, even some black wins.

in a framewok that is timed in advance, engine will allo time depending on the position, very often follow pv, as other engine will frequently match its first choice, which is not a good choice with wrong eval, so prune away a lot more, sometimes play easy moves with much less time, possibly clear hash, depending on settings, etc. so, playing level should dramatically fall, even at somewhat longer TC. with renewed searches, all this is done away with, so for me, this is the only rigth way to proceed in complex positions.

[Milos]

in a framewok that is timed in advance, engine will allo time depending on the position, very often follow pv, as other engine will frequently match its first choice, which is not a good choice with wrong eval, so prune away a lot more, sometimes play easy moves with much less time, possibly clear hash, depending on settings, etc. so, playing level should dramatically fall, even at somewhat longer TC. with renewed searches, all this is done away with, so for me, this is the only rigth way to proceed in complex positions.

Nobody is interested in your ridiculous theories, no one wants to hear explanation of another ARB system. You are just wasting time and delaying.
Or maybe you can make a post in Programmers forum .

Now, cut the crap and please make your move!
[d]r1b2rk1/pp1ppp1p/5Qp1/q7/4P3/1BN1B3/PPP1nPPP/R4RK1 w - - 1 13

[yanquis1972]

if you raise the offer 1000-fold, I will accept straigth away.
plus another million, if I win.

That would mean you'd have to pay 100k euros if you don't win, hm somehow I think I wouldn't get the money. But I still accept, even if I don't get any material satisfaction . So lets begin, I played 12... Ne2, now your turn!

another try, this time with SF:

[pgn][Event "analysis"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.12.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 8 "]
[Black "Stockfish 8, owner"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "5k2/1p1r1p1p/r2N1P2/p1P1P1p1/3B4/1P5P/4q1P1/1R1R2K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[TimeControl "600+2"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. Re1 {-1.06/23 4} Qd3 {-1.16/21 5} 2. Red1 {-1.20/25 2} Qc2
{-0.96/22 2} 3. Rdc1 {-0.87/24 2} Qg6 {-0.93/24 4} 4. Bf2 {-1.02/24 2} Qd3 {-0.
76/23 3} 5. Rd1 {-0.84/26 3} Qc2 {-0.78/24 1} 6. Rdc1 {-0.88/24 2} Qa2 {-0.85/
22 1} 7. Bd4 {-0.83/23 2} h6 {-0.82/21 2} 8. Rb2 {-0.66/21 2} Qa3 {-0.95/21 1}
9. Re1 {-0.83/21 1} Qb4 {-0.81/19 2} 10. Re4 {-0.18/20 1} Rc6 {-0.47/22 2} 11.
Kh2 {-0.46/25 2} Kg8 {-0.45/19 3} 12. Rbe2 {0.00/24 2} b5 {0.00/23 1} 13. Bf2 {
0.00/24 1} Qa3 {0.28/22 3} 14. b4 {0.41/24 3} *

[/pgn]

SF is a bit sluggish here, needs 30 plies until starts favouring white.

still did not see a single white loss here even from SF, many positive white scores, on the other hand.

my advice would be though to use only Komodo for this particular position, as it has the best imbalance eval, although far from perfect. SF and H migth give you a very hard time at that, as both engines have awful imbalances.

This is again some of your imaginary positions. Please since you accepted the challenge play from the main position posted and stop trolling. Expecting your move!
[d]r1b2rk1/pp1ppp1p/5Qp1/q7/4P3/1BN1B3/PPP1nPPP/R4RK1 w - - 1 13

Or you can just quit and then everyone will know that your are totally fake and nothing but an ARB clone .

just to explain why running a 100 games match instead of renewed searches will perform much worse, and people migth see many draws, even some black wins.

in a framewok that is timed in advance, engine will allo time depending on the position, very often follow pv, as other engine will frequently match its first choice, which is not a good choice with wrong eval, so prune away a lot more, sometimes play easy moves with much less time, possibly clear hash, depending on settings, etc. so, playing level should dramatically fall, even at somewhat longer TC. with renewed searches, all this is done away with, so for me, this is the only rigth way to proceed in complex positions.

you cannot demonstrate a win with outright blunders (and running SF itself will show blunders in this move set), only your initial point that it can be difficult for black to find the correct path...youre basically running a ouija board by forcing the engines to move as you do. self-play on decent hw at even short TC (not ultrafast), & you will see draws. or in free analysis, guide the engine against itself, etc...it will be a shock to me if you can show anything concrete from any position ive given in this thread, or any of the recent ones shown.

in this last set, as late as 12...Rxc5 draws
[d]6k1/1p1r1p2/2rN1P1p/p1P1P1p1/1q1BR3/1P5P/4R1PK/8 b - - 9 12