Draughts has not been solved, can a chess programmer solve it ?

[Chessqueen]

Joost, I believe that some or most Draughts engines that use network have problem understanding and using positions with a few stones left on the board, and there should be an algorithm that needs to be implemented or programmed with a neural network that automatically update itself while playing either by itself or other draughts engines without having to play thousands of games to have the network learn from those games, and in addition to this algorithm it should be combined with an EGDB of at least 7 stones or 7P FDB. Just my two cents.

You are right, this is something that I noticed too when I was training the draughts network. To solve the problem you could have the engine always play with an EGDB. Another possibility could be to train a second network for positions with <= 8 pieces using the WDL information from an EGDB.

I trained the draughts network without EGDB and used positions till the very end, it would be easier for the network to learn when it is trained with positions containing more than 8 pieces only. Still it did reasonably well during the 2021 unofficial WK, maybe it would have done better with an EGDB, I dont know.

Joost I send this link to my uncle where the Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2020 was played he is is a good 12x12 Draughts player in the Dominican Republic, and he does not understand why some of the engines started thinking about a move when there was only one move to choose from ? And How come there is no universally accepted interface GUI like in TCEC and here in CCRL, where a tournament like this could be run fully automatically without human intervention ?

[Joost Buijs]

Joost, I believe that some or most Draughts engines that use network have problem understanding and using positions with a few stones left on the board, and there should be an algorithm that needs to be implemented or programmed with a neural network that automatically update itself while playing either by itself or other draughts engines without having to play thousands of games to have the network learn from those games, and in addition to this algorithm it should be combined with an EGDB of at least 7 stones or 7P FDB. Just my two cents.

You are right, this is something that I noticed too when I was training the draughts network. To solve the problem you could have the engine always play with an EGDB. Another possibility could be to train a second network for positions with <= 8 pieces using the WDL information from an EGDB.

I trained the draughts network without EGDB and used positions till the very end, it would be easier for the network to learn when it is trained with positions containing more than 8 pieces only. Still it did reasonably well during the 2021 unofficial WK, maybe it would have done better with an EGDB, I dont know.

Joost I send this link to my uncle where the Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2020 was played he is is a good 12x12 Draughts player in the Dominican Republic, and he does not understand why some of the engines started thinking about a move when there was only one move to choose from ? And How come there is no universally accepted interface GUI like in TCEC and here in CCRL, where a tournament like this could be run fully automatically without human intervention ?

One of the reasons that there is no universally accepted interface protocol is that the computer Draughts community is too small, no development going on, and most people seem to be doing their own thing. There are interface protocols like DXP, Guide and Hub. Hub is some sort of UCI clone, only a few engines are supporting this. I suppose this is also the reason that it is virtually impossible to automate a Draughts tournament. You may want to ask Krzysztof Grzelak what the reason exactly is, he is the organizer of the tournament.

The reason that I let my engine think for a short while when there is only 1 move, is to get a better ponder-move, I can't speak for other engines.

[Rein Halbersma]

GM Ivanchuck after playing Draughts for 8 years is only ranked 1089 in the World Expert level, Whereas, Ivanchuk reached Master after studying chess for 8 years ==>

In the video he plays a blitz match against former vice world champion draughts Jan Groenendijk. In the very first game he loses within 2 minutes due to an elementary tactic, while having a reasonable position. This illustrates why the 8 vs. 8 years is totally apples vs. oranges. Ivanchuk studying chess full time as a young child in the Soviet chess schools until his early teens => chess master and GM soon thereafter vs. occasionally playing draughts in his 40s *while still earning his living as a chess GM* => not even close to master level. The difference is of course that a) his chess education was totally absorbing and b) he learned chess at an age where his brain would still be most adaptive to such intensive learning.

[Joost Buijs]

In the past Ton Sijbrands played chess too, I even played him once in a street tournament while I was still living in Amsterdam, this must have been almost 40 years ago. His level was like a strong club player around 2000 Elo, but nowhere like IM or GM level (2400-2600).

[Chessqueen]

In the past Ton Sijbrands played chess too, I even played him once in a street tournament while I was still living in Amsterdam, this must have been almost 40 years ago. His level was like a strong club player around 2000 Elo, but nowhere like IM or GM level (2400-2600).

Very interesting to know, I will send this link to my uncle in the Dominican Republic who is a good 12x12 player. He is only rated 2250 but has never travel internationally to compete, he is the one playing with light beige shirt and glasses the one that has a friend watching the game by his side. he also play chess but only rated 1910; anyway so he can study Ton Sijbrands games. Teunis (Ton) Sijbrands (Amsterdam, 15 December 1949) is a Dutch international draughts player who became world champion in 1972. The next year, he successfully defended his title in a match against Andris Andreiko
and

[Vinvin]

GM Ivanchuck after playing Draughts for 8 years is only ranked 1089 in the World Expert level, Whereas, Ivanchuk reached Master after studying chess for 8 years ==>

How do you know he studied Draughts for 8 years ?
And how hard did he study Draughts ?

[Chessqueen]

GM Ivanchuck after playing Draughts for 8 years is only ranked 1089 in the World Expert level, Whereas, Ivanchuk reached Master after studying chess for 8 years ==>

How do you know he studied Draughts for 8 years ?
And how hard did he study Draughts ?

He started to compete in 2016, almost 6 years ago, but according to an interview he started studying Draughts back in 2014, but I realized that he started in his 40's which is NOT the same as when he started studying Chess earlier in his youth when the brain absorb knowledge much faster without having to worry about all other things as an adult, while still earning his living as a chess GM http://www.fmjd.org/?p=pcard&id=20097

[Chessqueen]

GM Ivanchuck after playing Draughts for 8 years is only ranked 1089 in the World Expert level, Whereas, Ivanchuk reached Master after studying chess for 8 years ==>

How do you know he studied Draughts for 8 years ?
And how hard did he study Draughts ?

He started to compete in 2016, almost 6 years ago, but according to an interview he started studying Draughts back in 2014, but I realized that he started in his 40's which is NOT the same as when he started studying Chess earlier in his youth when the brain absorb knowledge much faster without having to worry about all other things as an adult, while still earning his living as a chess GM http://www.fmjd.org/?p=pcard&id=20097

Here are some of his latest games that he participated in a 2019 tournament===>https://results.fmjd.org/games/#/player/2019[@SL]f_2533/15