Chess grandmaster Hans Niemann sues champion Magnus Carlsen, others for $100 million over cheating claim

[dkappe]

chess.com report clearly stated that there is no statistical evidence he ever cheated OTB meaning from statistical analysis alone he is no more likely to have cheated as any other top player.

That's not quite correct. They found anomalies in his games and overperformance OTB. Not enough to proof cheating, but it is more "likely" that Hans cheated than other players. They also state clear at the beginning, that their methods are not (yet) suitable to check OTB games.

"Despite these potential suspicions, as shown below in Section VIII, an in-depth review of Hans’ OTB
games using Chess.com’s statistical methods revealed aggregate patterns of play that, while interesting,
are possible for a rising player approaching 2700. In Section IX we present Hans’ top performing events
based on his overperformance in strength and rating. We are prepared to cooperate with FIDE and respect
their role in leading this, and any, future OTB investigations."

I notice you cite the relevant chess.com passage as support for your words of .”…but it is more “likely” than Hans cheated than other players” (OTB).

Yet, the passage you cite only mentions patterns which are but “interesting" and “…possible for a rising player approaching 2700”

Did you happen to notice for the just ended US Championship performance (with its 30 min delay and extensive precautions), Hans Pre Tournament rating was: 2699….and his post tournament ‘Performance rating’ came out to be….2699?.

Give it up. He doesn’t actually read or understand the material, just cites it as supporting his contention.

[supersharp77]

THEy HAVE ALL GONE "DARK".... Hikaru has stopped posting about the controversy...Magnus is Silent...Chessbrah has dissappeared.. No Go From Caruana.. All The "Mathematics & Statistical Geniuses" Have Vanished !! My Twitter Feed has Mostly Dried up on The Subject!.. Funny How A Multimillion Dollar Lawsuit & A Hungry Team of NYC & St Louis Civil Lawyers Quiets The Chatter & Peanut Gallery! "Quite Amazing Actually... I'm Impressed With Hans Niemann.. This Young man Is A good Listener!

"Young Fischer?" Bobby Would Sue Em ALL!!

ps...Breaking News Twitter
Tarjei J. Svensen
@TarjeiJS

Hans Niemann to play for USA in the World Team Championship in Israel.....

Fascinating report by NRK how the scanners did not detect sunglasses with bluetooth, tiny earpieces and a smartwatch hidden in her bra
There was one Important article about someone sneaking micro devices Easily Thru Scanners at a OTB Tournament but is was in another language Lithuanian Or Estonian Or Something....

https://www.nrk.no/sport/varslar-ekstre ... 1.16151401

I have not seen the full Nakamura streams…

Who has that much time? I’ve seen some of the highlights. There was a fair amount of behind the scenes gossiping, basically to make it seem as if Nakamura was in the know. But given the sheer amount of shit talking he did, who knows how he might have exposed himself? Law firms have people in the Philippines and India to help them go through large volumes of evidence. If there’s something there, they’ll find it.

The relevant quotes are in points 97 to 101 of Niemann's complaint (just looked it up).

Just the beginning of discovery.

The problem with sueing Hikaru Nakamura is a different one IMHO. I certainly agree that Hikaru was not very careful about the things he said, and some of what he said is extremely close to defamation.

Let's say Magnus Carlsen decided to sue our own Chessqueen - two questions would be asked (amongst others):
1.) Would a reasonable person even take this person seriously?
2.) How much damage exactly have his posts caused for you?

Of course even if Hikaru acts like the silliest person alive, you can still argue that he is one of the strongest chessplayers around, kind of influential because of this etc. - but the general level of his contributions as a content creator should help him here. If we forget about the ill-advised 100 millions claim, Hikaru is still the one who should feel a little uncomfortable with this lawsuit.

[CornfedForever]

From chess.com

The Icelandic Grandmaster Hjörvar Gretarsson, who is a lawyer by profession, plays in the Fischer Random World Championship as a representative of the organiser and he described Niemann's lawsuit to NRK as "stupid": "This high demand makes no sense. It is typical of lawyers in the USA that they like to call for large sums of money. Niemann wants compensation, which makes sense. But it makes no sense that he claims to have lost 100 million USD," Gretarsson told NRK.

So, is the Icelandic lawyer agreeing that Hans should be compensated...but just disagrees with the amount? I could read this two different ways.

In any case, you ALWAYS ask for more than you expect to get. That's...just common sense, but perhaps not in Iceland.

[supersharp77]

"PANIC IN THE DISCO" Annoyed Caruana Discusses Hans Niemann Case with NYC Civil Lawyer Online...C-Squared Podcast...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNZBdfQjWN0

[syzygy]

I think the difference between our positions is largely that you think Magnus can say/do as he wants (as long as he does not directly say something like: "Hans cheats in OTB chess, therefore I will not play him OTB - or, obviously Online)."
Whereas I say he lives in the same ecosystem (not on an island to himself) as Hans and such words/insinuations/actions have an affect on Hans and his ability to play the game OTB.

If Magnus says "I don't like Niemann as a person, and I am not going to play him anymore in the future", then that has an effect on Hans and his ability to play the game, but there is nothing he can do about it.

If only that were the case! I think even Saul Goodman would laugh in your face if you gave him that to go to court with...

Who would be going to court? Not Carlsen.

Do you believe a court would award damages to Niemann? On what basis? Please explain.

[syzygy]

If Magnus says "I don't like Niemann as a person, and I am not going to play him anymore in the future", then that has an effect on Hans and his ability to play the game, but there is nothing he can do about it.

Similarly if some business decides "We don't like black people as a race and therefore we are not going to serve them" then that has an effect on black's people ability to receive services, but there is nothing they can do about it.

In your example you would be violating a law.

[syzygy]

chess.com report clearly stated that there is no statistical evidence he ever cheated OTB meaning from statistical analysis alone he is no more likely to have cheated as any other top player.

That's not quite correct. They found anomalies in his games and overperformance OTB. Not enough to proof cheating, but it is more "likely" that Hans cheated than other players. They also state clear at the beginning, that their methods are not (yet) suitable to check OTB games.

"Despite these potential suspicions, as shown below in Section VIII, an in-depth review of Hans’ OTB
games using Chess.com’s statistical methods revealed aggregate patterns of play that, while interesting,
are possible for a rising player approaching 2700. In Section IX we present Hans’ top performing events
based on his overperformance in strength and rating. We are prepared to cooperate with FIDE and respect
their role in leading this, and any, future OTB investigations."

I notice you cite the relevant chess.com passage as support for your words of .”…but it is more “likely” than Hans cheated than other players” (OTB).

Yet, the passage you cite only mentions patterns which are but “interesting" and “…possible for a rising player approaching 2700”

Did you happen to notice for the just ended US Championship performance (with its 30 min delay and extensive precautions), Hans Pre Tournament rating was: 2699….and his post tournament ‘Performance rating’ came out to be….2699?.

Give it up. He doesn’t actually read or understand the material, just cites it as supporting his contention.

And indeed it supports his actual contention quite well.

[syzygy]

From chess.com

The Icelandic Grandmaster Hjörvar Gretarsson, who is a lawyer by profession, plays in the Fischer Random World Championship as a representative of the organiser and he described Niemann's lawsuit to NRK as "stupid": "This high demand makes no sense. It is typical of lawyers in the USA that they like to call for large sums of money. Niemann wants compensation, which makes sense. But it makes no sense that he claims to have lost 100 million USD," Gretarsson told NRK.

So, is the Icelandic lawyer agreeing that Hans should be compensated...but just disagrees with the amount? I could read this two different ways.

In any case, you ALWAYS ask for more than you expect to get. That's...just common sense, but perhaps not in Iceland.

He is only talking about the damage.

If there was defamation, then Hans is entitled to compensation, but it won't realistically be anywhere near $100 million or $400 milliion.

If there was no defamation, then Hans is not entitled to compensation, even if this whole affair did cost him $100 million.
(OK, there are still the other claims he made which would have to be looked at, Sherman Act etc.)

[mirek]

And indeed it supports his actual contention quite well.

Not really, the relevant quote from chess.com is "there is nothing in our statistical investigation to raise any red flags regarding Hans’ OTB play and rise."

The "unusual" rise was addressed by chessbase article - nothing of substance in those allegations.

Also Kenneth Regan FIDE anti-cheating expert said something along that he "found nothing" in Hanse's OTB games explaining that the signal was close to zero (while the FIDE threshold for cheating investigation is 2.5). While he also agreed he didn't find any cheating after 2020 in Hanse's chess.com games. There is also podcast where he discusses his methodology:


And as already mentioned Hans performed according to what was expected by his rating on both Sinq. cup and US championship (13 rounds tournament!) while both (especially US championship) had high security measures. Would be quite strange Hans needed to cheat to achieve his FIDE rating but would then be able to maintain his performance despite high security measures.

[mirek]

In your example you would be violating a law.

You mean in present days I would be violating a law? How about at the height of segregation times in the U.S. I am sure at some point of history this would be perfectly legal. I guess since it was legal at that time it must have been also perfectly ethically OK back then. (i.e.: for sure things can be wrong only after they become illegal )